Sinner-to-Saint Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 18 minutes ago, Alan Stubbs said: I'm dipping in and out of these threads but I really don't think fans are desperate for visits from the Old Firm. The issue of Old Firm visits is relevant to what is likely to happen, rather than what most fans want. Most club owners in Scotland are boot-licking arseholes who think their club exists purely to sell its arse to Celtic and Rangers a few times a season. The point is they probably won't back reconstruction. I know a lot of Saints fans hate the visit of the Old Firm, and some people argue that the number of home supporters actually dwindles. However, from speaking to younger fans, they seem to relish the Old Firm visits - more atmosphere, recognisable players and being on TV seem to excite them. I think with Older Fans there's obviously more hostility towards the Old Firm and, let's face it, it's awful watching your side lose to a team whose players earn on average 15-18 times more than ours. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Ric said: Problem with attendances is they are massively shifted due to the OF. I don't think the Eredivisie (and I'd need to check) have such a disparity of say, 60,000 fans and maybe 2500 a the other end of the scale. I could be wildly off with that, they might very well do. 8 hours ago, Bohemian said: Yeah I dont know much about the Dutch league other than it's pretty much Ajax or PSV winning it every year, but I'd imagine their attendances compared to say Den Haag or FC Emmen would be similar to the OF v Killie and St Johnstone. Maybe not. Probably best to have a deeper look at their set up. Attendances in the Netherlands are, as Ric suggested, more evenly spread across the league. Celtic and Rangers attendances are a few thousand higher than the biggest two Dutch teams (Ajax and Feyenoord), but every step further down the league the Eredivisie has significantly higher gates, and of their 18 teams, 14 average at least 10k. Additionally, Dutch teams don't give up large away sections to the bigger clubs either like we do, so a far higher percentage of those gates represent home fans than in Scotland. A closer comparison to how our Premiership would look with a bigger league would be the Portuguese Primeira Liga. Like the Dutch, Portugal currently has an 18-team setup, but also has a far bigger disparity in attendances from the top teams to the bottom half. Half the top flight Portuguese clubs average under 4k, and I'd guess that without Benfica, Porto and Sporting's large away supports many of them would be struggling to even hit the 2k mark. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemian Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said: Budge wants to speak to the Mexican club owners. They cancelled promotion/relegation for five years. https://www.goal.com/en/news/liga-mx-promotion-and-relegation-suspended-for-five-years-due-to-/1xyy2w9fd8xqp1nvhddokqik82 El Budgo.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Bohemian said: El Budgo.. Please, some wag with photoshop put together an image of budge in one of those Mexican wrestling masks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bunk Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Variation on a 16 team league: Home and away matches between all clubs results in 30 games. Splitting the league in half, with clubs playing each other once, takes us to 37 games. Game 38 would be a derby Day with teams lacking a natural rival paired up on a geographical basis. This would probably preserve the 4 old firm matches, required by TV, whilst proving a bigger top league. Next season, the game 38 line up would be: Hibs-hearts Dundee-dundee u Celtic-rangers Motherwell-accies Kili-ayr Inverness-county Aberdeen-st Johnstone St mirren-livi This would surely make for a tasty last day of the season, but we don't do that in Scotland so it will probably be the opening day of the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, bennett said: Right now most of the premierships games are two teams sitting in and basically just sitting in. One of the worst games I watched was killie v the sheep, even Sawers fell asleep and started snoring. Give a larger league a chance to see if it would benefit our game, it can't make it even worse and we may even see some football played. We've nothing to lose here and spreading the cash around a bit wouldn't do any harm either. It's just an opinion, I haven't researched it for years and don't have barrowloads of evidence to back it up. (For Random guy) Aberdeen v Killie seems a funny one to use as an example. Neither in any real danger of relegation, so a bigger league wouldn't change that. We also used the same shitfest tacticts against Dumbarton, who wouldn't be in a 20 team top tier. Btw i'm fairly ambivalent about how the league is set up, and would probably have been for it a couple of of months ago, but folk arguing against 18 teams are convincing me more than those arguing for expansion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemian Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ric said: Please, some wag with photoshop put together an image of budge in one of those Mexican wrestling masks. Will a Budgie with a mexican hat do? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemian Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, Nightmare said: Attendances in the Netherlands are, as Ric suggested, more evenly spread across the league. Celtic and Rangers attendances are a few thousand higher than the biggest two Dutch teams (Ajax and Feyenoord), but every step further down the league the Eredivisie has significantly higher gates, and of their 18 teams, 14 average at least 10k. Additionally, Dutch teams don't give up large away sections to the bigger clubs either like we do, so a far higher percentage of those gates represent home fans than in Scotland. A closer comparison to how our Premiership would look with a bigger league would be the Portuguese Primeira Liga. Like the Dutch, Portugal currently has an 18-team setup, but also has a far bigger disparity in attendances from the top teams to the bottom half. Half the top flight Portuguese clubs average under 4k, and I'd guess that without Benfica, Porto and Sporting's large away supports many of them would be struggling to even hit the 2k mark. 14 teams averaging 10k is fairly impressive considering like here its usually a two horse race. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 23 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: People calling for an 18 team top division have a romantic notion of how it used to be. It was changed for a reason. The reasons not to have it have been compounded by changes in wider society. The novelty will wear off quickly and the argument that must-have teams can "blood youths" is fine in theory, but will enough people pay about £25.00 to watch it. An 18 team division also creates a low quality second tier that the 18 would be terrified to drop into because of the disastrous financial consequences. Nail on the heid. Also, regardless of the fact that it is a different world, there are at least 5 clubs who will look at the effect the switch to a 10 team league had on their attendances back in the mid 70s and fear an equal but opposite reaction if we back to the good old days. Below are the 10 clubs who qualified for the first Premier Division and the change in attendances from the previous 18 team league. Rangers -7,874 Celtic 84,909 Hibernian 15,091 Heart Of Midlothian 20,359 Aberdeen 47,483 Motherwell 72,597 Dundee 33,110 Dundee United 24,400 Ayr United 25,505 St Johnstone 14,043 Total 329,623 You can argue all you want about that was then and this is now and the smoke & mirrors season tickets scam all you want but what clubs (especially the city clubs) will see is pick and choose and empty seats more often than now. Throw TV money into the mix and 16 or 18 is a non starter. Incidentally, you'll notice that pre-sevco actually had a slight decrease. This is because the previous season they had an increase of 178,000 from 1973/74 because in 73/74 they finished 3rd and the loyal deserted them in their tens of thousands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemian Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, bennett said: Right now most of the premierships games are two teams sitting in and basically just sitting in. One of the worst games I watched was killie v the sheep, even Sawers fell asleep and started snoring. Give a larger league a chance to see if it would benefit our game, it can't make it even worse and we may even see some football played. We've nothing to lose here and spreading the cash around a bit wouldn't do any harm either. It's just an opinion, I haven't researched it for years and don't have barrowloads of evidence to back it up. (For Random guy) Simply Translated... " it's no fair teams didnt roll over for the mighty sevco, only show in town, WATP" Your team has been utter dugshite from January HTH Vicky. Edited April 18, 2020 by Bohemian 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, Bohemian said: 14 teams averaging 10k is fairly impressive considering like here its usually a two horse race. We have three clubs with no realistic title hopes, from cities bigger than Dundee, that average over 10k. Seems similar to the Netherlands (pop > 17m). Cities bigger than Dundee in the Netherlands : Name 2020 Population Location Amsterdam 741,636 Map Rotterdam 598,199 Map The Hague 474,292 Map Utrecht 290,529 Map Eindhoven 209,620 Map Tilburg 199,613 Map Groningen 181,194 Map Almere Stad 176,432 Map Breda 167,673 Map Nijmegen 158,732 Map Enschede 153,655 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestman54 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said: People calling for an 18 team top division have a romantic notion of how it used to be. It was changed for a reason. The reasons not to have it have been compounded by changes in wider society. The novelty will wear off quickly and the argument that must-have teams can "blood youths" is fine in theory, but will enough people pay about £25.00 to watch it. An 18 team division also creates a low quality second tier that the 18 would be terrified to drop into because of the disastrous financial consequences. I think it did back then but im thinking that with the pyramid coming in there are a developing number of potential quality which need space to grow in a larger league set up. Im still in for 16-14-14. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 35 minutes ago, Nightmare said: Attendances in the Netherlands are, as Ric suggested, more evenly spread across the league. Celtic and Rangers attendances are a few thousand higher than the biggest two Dutch teams (Ajax and Feyenoord), but every step further down the league the Eredivisie has significantly higher gates, and of their 18 teams, 14 average at least 10k. Additionally, Dutch teams don't give up large away sections to the bigger clubs either like we do, so a far higher percentage of those gates represent home fans than in Scotland. A closer comparison to how our Premiership would look with a bigger league would be the Portuguese Primeira Liga. Like the Dutch, Portugal currently has an 18-team setup, but also has a far bigger disparity in attendances from the top teams to the bottom half. Half the top flight Portuguese clubs average under 4k, and I'd guess that without Benfica, Porto and Sporting's large away supports many of them would be struggling to even hit the 2k mark. Yeah... Of course the Netherlands has a population more than 3 times Scotland's, it has a couple of cities bigger than Glasgow, 3 bigger than Edinburgh, 8 bigger than Aberdeen and 18 bigger than Dundee. Y'know 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 19 hours ago, Green Day said: Regarding the Dundee Utd bit ; "To be fair for everyone, if you are going to make promotions when the league isn't finished, and therefore we are rewarding people who have invested to try and achieve success, then I think we should also be recognising that some of us have made substantial investments to try to avoid relegation" So, what @JamieThomas said is technically correct. However imo Budge is stretching reality here in a way that makes The Matrix seem credible. Some have appeared to have invested - substantially or otherwise - more successfully than others, on the evidence to date. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I've noticed a fair amount of new posters coming on here and championing reconstruction, did Anne not furlough the Tynecastle PR team? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemian Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said: Yeah... Of course the Netherlands has a population more than 3 times Scotland's, it has a couple of cities bigger than Glasgow, 3 bigger than Edinburgh, 8 bigger than Aberdeen and 18 bigger than Dundee. Y'know I started all this Dutch football chat off ha. I wasn't trying to compare the two really, was just pointing out how they set up an18 team league. Dutch football is obviously in a better place than us for several reasons. As you said having a football mad country with 3 times our population is a good start 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 12 hours ago, The Reverend said: Why is it an appalling idea, though? Less travelling and more local derbies is surely a good thing? I'm quite sure the English Football League used to have regional leagues (north and south). 60 years ago. 1 promotion spot for 24 teams. Scrapped in favour of national leagues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 12 hours ago, The Reverend said: That's 64 senior league teams? I think it would need to be three leagues of 16. It's a good idea, but I think Scottish football would lose money from the TV companies due to the fewer Old Firm games. There's a lot more than 64 senior teams already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bohemian said: I started all this Dutch football chat off ha. I wasn't trying to compare the two really, was just pointing out how they set up an18 team league. Dutch football is obviously in a better place than us for several reasons. As you said having a football mad country with 3 times our population is a good start They've also got much better youth development, of course. (that went astray somewhat for a few years judging by the decline of the Dutch national team, although they seem to be on the road back) You're points, however, stand up against similar sized countries (Denmark, Switzerland, Austria) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4mmy31 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 59 minutes ago, The Bunk said: Game 38 would be a derby Day with teams lacking a natural rival paired up on a geographical basis. This would probably preserve the 4 old firm matches, required by TV, whilst proving a bigger top league. Next season, the game 38 line up would be: Hibs-hearts Dundee-dundee u Celtic-rangers Motherwell-accies Kili-ayr Inverness-county Aberdeen-st Johnstone St mirren-livi This would surely make for a tasty last day of the season, but we don't do that in Scotland so it will probably be the opening day of the season. Police Scotland would put a stop to your suggestion..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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