South Region Challenge Cup 2020-21

[Marten]

5 hours ago, mcruic said:

Just to be clear, I think the juniors should all join the senior setup.  My point was simply that some junior teams are acting like they are moving to a foreign country, when in reality they'll be playing much the same teams they are already playing, and a few new ones, which surely freshens things up a bit (that's what I meant by senior non-league football being essentially the same thing as what they are already playing in - "the juniors").

The biggest problem so far seems to be the north - there doesn't seem to be an avenue to "make a move" like Kelty and then the rest did in the EoS League.  So I think we could see the junior continuing in the North, and maybe Tayside for a wee while yet.

A number of clubs that you classed as "ex-junior" have their roots in amateur football (like Kelty) and some others were senior, went junior and then back senior. That & your post just shows how ridiculous this artificial divide is. Let's get rid of the last divide & include the north & remainder of the east in the pyramid.

[Marten]

6 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

superb, thanks for that

Regarding the Lothians Juniors in the EOS junior league.  I know personally from face to face chats with some committee men and coach's that 3 East junior teams are definitely leaving after this season to join the pyramid.  One of those teams, to be honest are run by the old guard of junior committee men and I was informed that even they realize that its best to move to the pyramid even though their heart is in the juniors

I'd expect all of them to leave in that case, if there are 3 more clubs leaving there are only 10 teams left, of which 3 are the tribute acts. Surely even the most hardened junior-men will admit this is no longer feasible?

[LongTimeLurker]

It might be 4 with Livingston United already having been announced? Syngenta are also likely to be viewed as every bit as unappealing as the three tribute acts as opponents, so the east region is clearly on its last legs south of Tayport with the emergence of the WoS. Once the rival east tier 6 feeder issue is put to rest hopefully there can be some joined up thinking on merging the SCC and SJC to form something bigger and better.

[mcruic]

10 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Anyways Im out, I cant be bothered with this

Nice cop out - why not just admit you made a mistake in thinking I was someone else who was pro-juniors, when in fact I'm not?  I even went to the bother of trying to clear up the misunderstanding in my subsequent post. Nice of you to tell us you "can't be bothered with this".  Just think before you speak and you won't have to bother with anything instead of throwing yourself into a hissy fit.

[mcruic]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It might be 4 with Livingston United already having been announced? Syngenta are also likely to be viewed as every bit as unappealing as the three tribute acts as opponents, so the east region is clearly on its last legs south of Tayport with the emergence of the WoS. Once the rival east tier 6 feeder issue is put to rest hopefully there can be some joined up thinking on merging the SCC and SJC to form something bigger and better.

I'm not sure what the smallest number of teams in a junior league was historically, but they might be able to hang on right down to 6 teams remaining, if they're desperate.

So - apart from the tributes and Syngenta, there are 9 teams:
Livingston United have already said they want to go (they missed the deadline for 2020/21 or they'd be gone already) - they'd be at the top end of the Tier 7 conferences.
On current form, Whitburn, Fauldhouse, Armadale, Pumpherston are decent quality and should be near the top of the EoS League conferences, Bathgate would be a mid-table team, Harthill and Stoneyburn would be mid-bottom table in the conferences, and West Calder would be a bottom feeder (as they were last season).

Not sure who the 3 teams are that have shown interest in leaving, but if it's any 3 of the top 4, it's going to be not much of a League left, bereft of any quality teams.

The merging of the SJC and SCC into something bigger would be contingent on the North/Tayside teams getting on board, as well as maybe the West Juniors (53 of them) who have retained SJFA membership giving that up.  With those 53 clubs retaining membership, it gives the SJC some decent strength.  Without them, I think the SJC might hold less appeal (unless a Lothian club wants to hang on in the hope they might win it before it goes).

In terms of the SCC, most of the best teams are already there.  You've only really got the 9 or 10 Lothian clubs and maybe Scone Thistle from the Tayside division who would be south of the dividing line.  It's not really a big loss to the SCC region as a whole if they don't join, but it's damaging to the remaining junior clubs if they want to progress as clubs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mcruic

[mcruic]

Using my database of matches from 2014-15 until the present day (33,000 matches), I've managed to come up with a strength comparison for all the leagues, along with a variation factor (how variable the strength is within that league).

You can see that the Lowland League now appears to be stronger than the Highland League overall (the Highland League being let down by not having any new blood coming in, and having lots of teams finishing perennially near the bottom).  In fact the EoS and WoS Premier are also stronger than the Highland League overall (EoS Premier being on a par with the Lowland League, with the WoS Premier being the best outside the SPFL, not too far behind League 2).  This would suggest that the SCC Cup might have a winner from the WoS Premier. South of Scotland League doesn't belong at Tier 6.

Ranking of individual leagues would be:
1: SPFL Premiership
2: SPFL Championship
3: SPFL League 1
4: SPFL League 2
5: WoS Premier
6: Lowland League
7: EoS Premier
8: Highland League
9: WoS Conference C
10: WoS Conference B
11: WoS Conference A
12: East Juniors (North/Tayside)
13: North Juniors Superleague
14. EoS 1st Division, Conference A
15: East Juniors (South/Lothian)
16: EoS 1st Division, Conference B
17: North Juniors 1st Division
18: South of Scotland League
19: North Caledonian League 1st Division
20: North Juniors 2nd Division
21: North Caledonian League 2nd Division

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mcruic

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 12/09/2020 at 12:51, mcruic said:

Nice cop out - why not just admit you made a mistake in thinking I was someone else who was pro-juniors, when in fact I'm not?  I even went to the bother of trying to clear up the misunderstanding in my subsequent post. Nice of you to tell us you "can't be bothered with this".  Just think before you speak and you won't have to bother with anything instead of throwing yourself into a hissy fit.

lol didn't throw myself in a hissy fit, it was too late and my ole eyes count take anymore even when I was wrong.
I just wished it was more cleaner in what you wur saying or intending to say but im sure it was me being too tired and got it wrong, so apologies 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

15 hours ago, Marten said:

I'd expect all of them to leave in that case, if there are 3 more clubs leaving there are only 10 teams left, of which 3 are the tribute acts. Surely even the most hardened junior-men will admit this is no longer feasible?

I suppose out of the 3 that been in the conversations, there's two who want to leave and there's one who think they have no choice but to leave as they think most will go anyways.  No matter id rather they join cause they truly want too not feeling forced like what happened to a few of the smaller one sin the west region

[Marshmallo]

21 hours ago, mcruic said:

Using my database of matches from 2014-15 until the present day (33,000 matches), I've managed to come up with a strength comparison for all the leagues, along with a variation factor (how variable the strength is within that league).

You can see that the Lowland League now appears to be stronger than the Highland League overall (the Highland League being let down by not having any new blood coming in, and having lots of teams finishing perennially near the bottom).  In fact the EoS and WoS Premier are also stronger than the Highland League overall (EoS Premier being on a par with the Lowland League, with the WoS Premier being the best outside the SPFL, not too far behind League 2).  This would suggest that the SCC Cup might have a winner from the WoS Premier. South of Scotland League doesn't belong at Tier 6.

Ranking of individual leagues would be:
1: SPFL Premiership
2: SPFL Championship
3: SPFL League 1
4: SPFL League 2
5: WoS Premier
6: Lowland League
7: EoS Premier
8: Highland League
9: WoS Conference C
10: WoS Conference B
11: WoS Conference A
12: East Juniors (North/Tayside)
13: North Juniors Superleague
14. EoS 1st Division, Conference A
15: East Juniors (South/Lothian)
16: EoS 1st Division, Conference B
17: North Juniors 1st Division
18: South of Scotland League
19: North Caledonian League 1st Division
20: North Juniors 2nd Division
21: North Caledonian League 2nd Division

 

There are going to be 15-20 farmers from Little Mid Dumfriesdale Reserves very angry about this!

[mcruic]

13 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I suppose out of the 3 that been in the conversations, there's two who want to leave and there's one who think they have no choice but to leave as they think most will go anyways.  No matter id rather they join cause they truly want too not feeling forced like what happened to a few of the smaller one sin the west region

Are the 3 that's been in the conversations 3 of the better teams in the league?

[mcruic]

13 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

lol didn't throw myself in a hissy fit, it was too late and my ole eyes count take anymore even when I was wrong.
I just wished it was more cleaner in what you wur saying or intending to say but im sure it was me being to tired and go it wrong, so apologies 

Aye - I tried my best to be clear, but as you say it was late!  So, apologies from me as well for not being a bit better in communicating my intentions.  That's 1-1 now in apologies, is it straight to penalties?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Are the 3 that's been in the conversations 3 of the better teams in the league?

I'm not been up to date with the east league last year or how strong each team is this year so I suppose its about opinions

The 3 in question are just well known junior teams but I suppose most are in the East league. 

Their intention is to leave next year but then again, plans are made to be broken but two are enthusiastic about their season to start with but are also looking to moving on to the pyramid.

And yeah it was late and 100% my fault and Ive lost in penalties

[mcruic]

Just thinking that the enthusiasm must have dampened somewhat given that most of the top teams have moved on.  Half of the draw of playing in any competition is the ability to test yourself against the better teams.  Fauldhouse, Whitburn, Livingston United, Pumpherston and Armadale are now the "better teams" in the league. 

In the final season before the East juniors mostly moved to the EoS League, none of the remaining Lothian league teams were in the top league of 16 teams. 3 were in the 2nd level Premier League, and the other 6 were in the bottom regional division.

Based on 2017/18 league positions, the clubs were ranked 18-45 in the East Juniors overall.

18 Fauldhouse United
29 Bathgate Thistle
31 Whitburn
33 Pumpherston Juniors
34 Armadale Thistle
37 West Calder United
40 Harthill Royal
44 Livingston United
45 Stoneyburn

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

The EoSFL have their fixture list pdf up. There's a breakdown of the intended dates for the 2020-21 SCC.

[WilliamBragg]

On 15/09/2020 at 19:20, FairWeatherFan said:

The EoSFL have their fixture list pdf up. There's a breakdown of the intended dates for the 2020-21 SCC.

Not having much knowledge of this cup due to my team making its debut it this year was just wondering is the final always played at the end of the season or is this a Covid related thing.

Will be glad if this is regular as if my team were lucky enough to make it all the way it would have the feeling of the old Junior Cup for me.

Where or what level of ground does the final tend to be played at?

[GordonS]

22 minutes ago, WilliamBragg said:

Not having much knowledge of this cup due to my team making its debut it this year was just wondering is the final always played at the end of the season or is this a Covid related thing.

Will be glad if this is regular as if my team were lucky enough to make it all the way it would have the feeling of the old Junior Cup for me.

Where or what level of ground does the final tend to be played at?

Final is always at the end of the season, it's the biggest cup final for the grade (and obviously considerably bigger now too).

2019-20 semis haven't been played yet.

18-19 was between East Kilbride and Bonnyrigg, played at Meggetland in Edinburgh. This is Tynecastle's ground and a pretty good place to watch football. It has a capacity over 4,000, with 500 seats, but the attendance was a pretty disappointing 600 or so, IIRC.

17-18 was the last before the East Exodus, it was between BSC Glasgow and Civil Service Strollers and was played at Musselburgh.

16-17 was Cumbernauld Colts v East Kilbride at Falkirk

15-16 was Edinburgh City v Whitehill Welfare at Edinburgh Uni.

14-15 was BSC Glasgow v Civil Service Strollers at Whitehill Welfare's ground.

I wouldn't expect a big crowd for the 19-20 final (if it ever gets played), because the better supported teams are already out - Bo'ness lost to BSC, Linlithgow lost to Camelon (who lost to Hill of Beath), Bonnyrigg lost to Dunipace, etc. But we really need to get behind this competition, talk it up, get it established in the minds of supporters, because it's the by far the best non-league cup in the country now. 

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, WilliamBragg said:

Not having much knowledge of this cup due to my team making its debut it this year was just wondering is the final always played at the end of the season or is this a Covid related thing.

Will be glad if this is regular as if my team were lucky enough to make it all the way it would have the feeling of the old Junior Cup for me.

Where or what level of ground does the final tend to be played at?

When it began it didn't really have a fixed spot in the calendar. It was created as a replacement for the Qualifying Cup (South) which had been an early season tournament. Most of those dates were then taken up by the early rounds of the Scottish Cup proper. You can find finals contested from March-May as the EoSFL & SoSFL had their own end of season competitions.

It is when the Lowland League is established in 2013-14 that the SCC becomes the end of season showpiece. The size of the competition now dictates its place in the calendar as you need that much space to ensure it gets completed.

Finals have been held at decent sized SPFL venues in the past: Tynecastle, Falkirk, and Palmerston. With other non-league venues used basically depending on what would be best for the teams in the Final.

Don't be surprised if the likes of Rugby Park, Almondvale, Falkirk, Broadwood, Airdrie, Hamilton become the norm depending who are in the final. The obvious complaint being they are all 3G/4G surfaces but that's what makes them cheaper to hire.

[LongTimeLurker]

Given how jam-packed the league seasons would be for a 17 club Lowland League and a 20 club WoS premier this season with an Oct 9 start it is frankly astonishing that the LL/EoS fixture secretary would think that allocating six Saturdays before the end of April  to the SCC would have been a sensible move. A blazer politics related agenda coming to the fore by the looks of things.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given how jam-packed the league seasons would be for a 17 club Lowland League and a 20 club WoS premier this season with an Oct 9 start it is frankly astonishing that the LL/EoS fixture secretary would think that allocating six Saturdays before the end of April  to the SCC would have been a sensible move. A blazer politics related agenda coming to the fore by the looks of things.

It's not just up to the LL and EoSFL to decide. The SoSFL are on the competition committee and presumably the WoSFL are on it now as well. The South had their AGM before the draw and dates were decided. One of the announcements from that was the South Challenge Cup was one of the two cup competitions they were definitely playing.

The vast majority of teams get knocked out after the first two rounds. It's not like everyone is giving up 6 Saturdays.

Games that don't get played on those dates noted can then be played on the date of the next round, or with agreement midweek. So it doesn't cause the same level of disruption as other competitions.

Also what's the agenda that's coming to the fore? Because you seem to be the only one that can see it.

Edited September 28, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given how jam-packed the league seasons would be for a 17 club Lowland League and a 20 club WoS premier this season with an Oct 9 start it is frankly astonishing that the LL/EoS fixture secretary would think that allocating six Saturdays before the end of April  to the SCC would have been a sensible move. A blazer politics related agenda coming to the fore by the looks of things.

"Agenda"? What agenda?

Bear in mind that half the teams are out after one game, three-quarters after two. Actually more than that, once you factor in byes. It'll mean 6 games for 2 clubs and 5 games for another 2. Hardly the end of the world.

If there's just one cup competition that survives it should be this one, and who wants a season of league games only? If it came to it I'd rather lose a few league games to fit in a cup.