South Region Challenge Cup 2020-21

[Tutankhamen]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

19 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

They could be at 18 clubs by next summer with no relegation.
The original LL started with 12 clubs in 2013 of which 5 have now moved elsewhere.

If they go to 18, they will relegate 2.

And you have that on good authority?

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

19 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

They could be at 18 clubs by next summer with no relegation.
The original LL started with 12 clubs in 2013 of which 5 have now moved elsewhere.

If they go to 18, they will relegate 2.

By my reading of the rules (see the last two pages) it's impossible to go to 18 and still relegate 2, even if the play-off scenario was Brora beating Albion Rovers and Tranent getting promoted. If the established number is 18, then the current 17 + Rovers + Tranent = 19 therefore only 1 club is relegated to get back to 18. The league would need to remain at 17 or go back to 16 to relegate more than one club.

Unless the rules might have changed and of course we don't know exactly what's happening if clubs pull out in the near future.

[Burnieman]

By my reading of the rules (see the last two pages) it's impossible to go to 18 and still relegate 2, even if the play-off scenario was Brora beating Albion Rovers and Tranent getting promoted. If the established number is 18, then the current 17 + Rovers + Tranent = 19 therefore only 1 club is relegated to get back to 18. The league would need to remain at 17 or go back to 16 to relegate more than one club.
Unless the rules might have changed and of course we don't know exactly what's happening if clubs pull out in the near future.

Well it's being talked about as a possibility. I doubt anything is set in stone at the moment, although they expect at least one team to withdraw before the deadline to save themselves from possible relegation, but that won't stop promotion.

[FairWeatherFan]

With the rule change they put in place, the LL have pretty much given themselves the liberty to make it up as they go along.

I don't think they're plannning to get back to 16 this season as they don't exist in a vacuum. We probably would have heard more fuss from the EoSFL side of things, as they would bear the brunt of extra clubs being relegated into the EoS Premier.

[Marshmallo]

The LL will go to 18 and retain one relegation place IMO. They've bent over backwards to avoid relegating the original members despite an increasing backlog below them.

The sole exception was Whitehill Welfare who can probably feel justifiably aggrieved given their own relegation was handled poorly by the governing bodies and the continued babying of the likes of Vale of Leithen.

[Dev]

On 22/11/2020 at 17:45, Tutankhamen said:

Why would the LL teams vote to relegate two clubs?

Over the next few seasons strong clubs will come up so the current weaker LL clubs won't be there for very much longer.

Once that has happened the LL will become stronger than the Premier Divisions of the EoS and the WoS. If that happens then most clubs in the then LL will be thinking that they're not likely to be in the bottom two anyway so why not have two up - two down.  They may also be thinking that, if they had a bad season, it would be easier to get back up to the LL.

At present those weaker clubs in the LL will be thinking that there's a strong chance that they won't be bouncing back up to the LL anytime soon - hence keep just one relegation spot. 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

They've bent over backwards to avoid relegating the original members despite an increasing backlog below them.

Didn't realise the LL created COVID. Otherwise I can't think of a specific example where they've bent over backwards to avoid relegating original members. You even highlighted the example where they were going to relegate bottom of the league even after Selkirk went bust.

[Marshmallo]

24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Didn't realise the LL created COVID. Otherwise I can't think of a specific example where they've bent over backwards to avoid relegating original members. You even highlighted the example where they were going to relegate bottom of the league even after Selkirk went bust.

Their structure of a 16/17 team league with one relegation spot is, by definition, designed to keep the original members up. Three leagues playing off for one spot in the LL is not enough.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Their structure of a 16/17 team league with one relegation spot is, by definition, designed to keep the original members up. Three leagues playing off for one spot in the LL is not enough.

The 17 team league being a by product of COVID. Which was probably another reason why the issue of promotion and relegation wasn't further amended over the close season as nobody knew what 2020-21 would bring.

There's no point in taking the last year and applying it to the next 5.

 

[Ginaro]

19 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The LL will go to 18 and retain one relegation place IMO. They've bent over backwards to avoid relegating the original members despite an increasing backlog below them.

The sole exception was Whitehill Welfare who can probably feel justifiably aggrieved given their own relegation was handled poorly by the governing bodies and the continued babying of the likes of Vale of Leithen.

The only thing WW have to feel aggrieved about is that it took until June for their relegation to be confirmed, due to the Bonnyrigg licence situation. Berwick's defeat by Cove and Bonnyrigg's promotion meant that the club in 15th had to be relegated anyway to maintain a 16 club league.

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The 17 team league being a by product of COVID. Which was probably another reason why the issue of promotion and relegation wasn't further amended over the close season as nobody knew what 2020-21 would bring.

There's no point in taking the last year and applying it to the next 5.

 

1 team down from a 16 team league is very poor and not progressive.

[craigkillie]

On 25/11/2020 at 11:22, Burnieman said:

Well it's being talked about as a possibility. I doubt anything is set in stone at the moment, although they expect at least one team to withdraw before the deadline to save themselves from possible relegation, but that won't stop promotion.

The fact that this is being permitted in a supposedly professional league is wild, even in the current circumstances. I could understand doing it at the start of the season, but allowing it mid-season is a nonsense. You're basically giving teams a get out of jail free card if they make a bad start to the season, and causing disruption to those higher up the table with results being annulled and so on. If you want to pull out now, you should be playing in Tier 6 next season.

[Burnieman]

12 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The fact that this is being permitted in a supposedly professional league is wild, even in the current circumstances. I could understand doing it at the start of the season, but allowing it mid-season is a nonsense. You're basically giving teams a get out of jail free card if they make a bad start to the season, and causing disruption to those higher up the table with results being annulled and so on. If you want to pull out now, you should be playing in Tier 6 next season.

Completely agree.  The Chairman of the WoSFL is also on the LL Board, go figure where the idea of withdrawing with no penalty comes from.

[glensmad]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

Completely agree.  The Chairman of the WoSFL is also on the LL Board, go figure where the idea of withdrawing with no penalty comes from.

The difference is the WoSFL cut it off after 2 or 3 games into the season, so it has minimal impact on the rest of the season. The LL have given teams till Christmas.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

1 team down from a 16 team league is very poor and not progressive.

If the WoSFL had got off the ground in early 2018 when there was the first attempt it would look a little differently by now. Instead things have been tied up in PWG negotiations, a lopsided Tier 6 and now a global pandemic where everyone is counting their pennies.

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If the WoSFL had got off the ground in early 2018 when there was the first attempt it would look a little differently by now. Instead things have been tied up in PWG negotiations, a lopsided Tier 6 and now a global pandemic where everyone is counting their pennies.

I disagree and believe they will go to 18 next season while retaining one relegation spot.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Marshmallo said:

I disagree and believe they will go to 18 next season while retaining one relegation spot.

I expect them to go to 18 but even in their own rulebook they acknowledge they can only exceed 16 temporarily. So more than one has to get relegated.

[Burnieman]

4 hours ago, glensmad said:

The difference is the WoSFL cut it off after 2 or 3 games into the season, so it has minimal impact on the rest of the season. The LL have given teams till Christmas.

Both ideas are bonkers.  The EoSFL at least insist that if you want to withdraw before 11th? December, you're penalty is to drop down one level instead of rejoin at the bottom  (EoS goes Premier (16) - First (16) - Second (16/18) next season, possibly Third if enough new applicants).  Promotion still happens.

So Premier clubs start next season in the First if they withdraw,  First Division Conference clubs will start next season in the Second. Nobody will be forcibly demoted to the Third if it happens.

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Both ideas are bonkers.  The EoSFL at least insist that if you want to withdraw before 11th? December, you're penalty is to drop down one level instead of rejoin at the bottom  (EoS goes Premier (16) - First (16) - Second (16/18) next season, possibly Third if enough new applicants).  Promotion still happens.

So Premier clubs start next season in the First if they withdraw,  First Division Conference clubs will start next season in the Second. Nobody will be forcibly demoted to the Third if it happens.

At least the Lowland League made their decision weeks before the season started, and can accomodate clubs being promoted for another season. 

If the Lowland League were going back down to 16 this season regardless the EoS Premier would be even more cutthroat with VoL & Edinburgh University looking favourites to fill the bottom 2 spots in the LL.

[Burnieman]

At least the Lowland League made their decision weeks before the season started, and can accomodate clubs being promoted for another season. 
If the Lowland League were going back down to 16 this season regardless the EoS Premier would be even more cutthroat with VoL & Edinburgh University looking favourites to fill the bottom 2 spots in the LL.

As has been said, an absolute free pass for struggling clubs to withdraw, sit the rest of the season out, and go again next season with absolutely no penalty. However you dress it up, it's appalling in a supposed Pyramid. The scenes if 2 or 3 clubs withdraw......