South Region Challenge Cup 2020-21

[Andy groundhopper]

A rebranded SCCup to include the North teams - split north and south for early rounds, then the remaining North clubs come into the National rounds, surely someone cleverer than myself could work out the numbers.  Scotland needs something other than the Scottish Cup for non league clubs only, to replace the SJC in the future.

[Sunrise]

How common are non-league national cup competitions, particularly outside the U.K.?

Germany scrapped theirs years ago. I’ve never seen any enthusiasm from the Highland League for one.

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, Sunrise said:

How common are non-league national cup competitions, particularly outside the U.K.?

Germany scrapped theirs years ago. I’ve never seen any enthusiasm from the Highland League for one.

Italy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppa_Italia_Dilettanti

Spain - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Royal_Federation_Cup

Those seem to fit the mould of what some people are looking for, a national cup for the lower tiers of the "professional" game. Although the levels they operate at are actually excluded from the Coppa Italia and Copa Del Rey. So its different again to what can happen here, where clubs would be able to play in both.

The Highland League seem to have a rather pragmatic approach to it. They did have to teams compete in a one season attempt at an Inter-League Trophy with sides also drawn from the EoSFL and SoSFL back in 2001-02. That was at a time the league was down to 15 teams and didn't have to worry about finishing the league in time for the SPFL play-off of course. Every member of the Highland League already competes in the Scottish Cup. A non-league version that has no guarantee of covering travel costs, let alone anything else doesn't have an obvious appeal to it.

[GNU_Linux]

Ukraine has the Ukranian Amateur Cup (Кубок України з футболу серед аматорських команд) for clubs at tier 4 & below. A formal pyramid is a relativley new in Ukraine. Before it was a case of the regional level amateur clubs applying to play in the pro tiers.

Estonia has the Estonian Small Cup for clubs at tier 4 & below.

The Dutch scrapped the KNVB Beker voor amateurs a few years back. Was a cup played between the winner of each Districtbeker (District Cup). The pyramid situation in the Netherlands is a bit of mess tbh.

[Marten]

10 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

The Dutch scrapped the KNVB Beker voor amateurs a few years back. Was a cup played between the winner of each Districtbeker (District Cup). The pyramid situation in the Netherlands is a bit of mess tbh.

Yes, there are now just 6 regional cups, all of them offer qualifying spots for the national cup though.

The Dutch pyramid is even more of a mess than the Scottish one, including artificial divides...

Edited September 10, 2020 by Marten

[Bestsinceslicebread]

I do not understand this thread when people are talking about other countries and their non league national cup.
It has no bearing on Scotland, the national people of each country have different views than Scottish nationals and the set up, size of populations that play football are different, even the country which they all reside and play has an effect if a national non league cup goes ahead so all this talk is pointless.

Is there a south cup, yeah its the SCC or soccer shop challenge cup and it has 146 teams, (is that right?) and how many from the North could play in an equivalent trophy in the North and how many would want to, that's really the questions.

How do I see the SCC, very exciting, far more exciting and harder to win than the SJC in recent years
Would I bother with a national non league trophy, yeah but not right now, well for a couple of seasons as I think we all have enough to get on with and contemplate in regards to getting to see if the football we have organized will be able to go ahead.
 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[LongTimeLurker]

Different strokes for different folks as the Americans say. Maybe it is more noteworthy that Wales, NI and the RoI all have national nonleague cup competitions with histories stretching way back like the SJC, and closer to home if the amateur grade can still do it complete with a final at Hampden, then it would/will be bizarre for the part-time professional level not to have one as well and to only have relatively low key regional competitions instead.

If the various leagues are not able to start up with spectators next month (fingers crossed that won't happen and it's all just a case of politicians having to be seen to be take something seriously without actually pulling the trigger), I suspect all we'll see this season is the conclusion of last season's SJC and there will even be a major question mark over the rounds that have been drawn for the SCC ever happening as league games will have to take priority.

Once we are back to something closer to normality, hopefully now that the SJFA will be under new management it will be possible for the various leagues and associations to work together more constructively than has been the case over the last 20 years, and to come up with a plan for the future that doesn't completely throw away what was great about the past:

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Different strokes for different folks as the Americans say. Maybe it is more noteworthy that Wales, NI and the RoI all have national nonleague cup competitions with histories stretching way back like the SJC, and closer to home if the amateur grade can still do it complete with a final at Hampden, then it would/will be bizarre for the part-time professional level not to have one as well and to only have relatively low key regional competitions instead.

If the various leagues are not able to start up with spectators next month (fingers crossed that won't happen and it's all just a case of politicians having to be seen to be take something seriously without actually pulling the trigger), I suspect all we'll see this season is the conclusion of last season's SJC and there will even be a major question mark over the rounds that have been drawn for the SCC ever happening as league games will have to take priority.

Once we are back to something closer to normality, hopefully now that the SJFA will be under new management it will be possible for the various leagues and associations to work together more constructively than has been the case over the last 20 years, and to come up with a plan for the future that doesn't completely throw away what was great about the past:

 

 

I suspect the last thing anyone at the Lowland league association think about is the SJC, probably couldn't give a F*&k about it, and I agree now as I have no interest in it and don't blame the Lowland if they did

What a lot of people don't get, or just plan ignore is the tier 6 and tier 7 leagues are considered more important than the SJC, the SCC is considered more important than the SJC, so this men's that, the SCC will take precedence over the SJC so I dont think there is much chance of the SJC being completed, why because the SJC is NOT part of the Lowland league Association

[Andy groundhopper]

Think last season's SJC should have been finished pre season, like bringing the curtain down - then restarting anew. In a normal season the SCC should be taken seriously alongside league fixtures, and hopefully in time - the winners get a Scottish Cup place or something ? In future maybe just one cup , are the smaller County Cups etc taken seriously ? 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Think last season's SJC should have been finished pre season, like bringing the curtain down - then restarting anew. In a normal season the SCC should be taken seriously alongside league fixtures, and hopefully in time - the winners get a Scottish Cup place or something ? In future maybe just one cup , are the smaller County Cups etc taken seriously ? 

They will be, but not this season as they cannot be fit in but I suspect there would have been a straight forward league cup and a West Cup

[LongTimeLurker]

Finishing last season's SJC wouldn't be mission impossible given there are only 5 games left to schedule if they do the semis as one game rather than over two legs. There is only one non-WoS club and they aren't likely to make it past Darvel, so they could easily do most of it midweek given the plan judging by what is being posted elsewhere appears to be to mainly do cups after the league season ends:

 

 

 

[mcruic]

On 10/09/2020 at 21:50, LongTimeLurker said:

Finishing last season's SJC wouldn't be mission impossible given there are only 5 games left to schedule if they do the semis as one game rather than over two legs. There is only one non-WoS club and they aren't likely to make it past Darvel, so they could easily do most of it midweek given the plan judging by what is being posted elsewhere appears to be to mainly do cups after the league season ends:

 

 

 

Broughty has a good chance against Darvel given that they're at home, after having drawn in Ayrshire.  They're one of the top 5 teams left in the juniors.  However, it seems Darvel has strengthened for the WoS Premier, so they might be a better team now.

I think fitting these games in should be relatively straightforward, as you say, and I imagine the clubs would want to play these matches.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by mcruic

[mcruic]

On 10/09/2020 at 09:00, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I do not understand this thread when people are talking about other countries and their non league national cup.
It has no bearing on Scotland, the national people of each country have different views than Scottish nationals and the set up, size of populations that play football are different, even the country which they all reside and play has an effect if a national non league cup goes ahead so all this talk is pointless.

Is there a south cup, yeah its the SCC or soccer shop challenge cup and it has 146 teams, (is that right?) and how many form the North could play in an equivalent trophy in the North and how many would want to, that's really the questions.

How do I see the SCC, very exciting, far more exciting and harder to win than the SJC in recent years
Would I bother with a national non league trophy, yeah but not right now, well for a couple of seasons as I think we all have enough to get on with and contemplate in regards to getting to see if the football we have organized will be able to go ahead.
 

144 teams in the South - 142 entered the cup this year due to 2 (Cumbernauld Colts and Arniston Rangers) infringing rules in last season's competition.

For the North - there's no pyramid beyond the Highland League's 17 clubs.  If you were to include the North Caledonian League, you'd get an extra 12 clubs- so 29 max.  The top North Caledonian clubs are approximately equal to the bottom Highland League clubs.

If all junior clubs eventually join the pyramid (and Tayside clubs move North) - you'd have:

157 in the South (17 Lowland, 48 East of Scotland, 12 South of Scotland, 67 West of Scotland, 13 Lothian/Falkirk juniors)
79 in the north (17 Highland, 12 North Caledonian, 17 Tayside Juniors, 33 North Juniors)
4 reserve teams that play in senior leagues (Stranraer, Caledonian Braves, University of Stirling, Nairn County) would be ineligible.

A national competition would have 236 teams and would be an 8 round affair (same as the current South competition, but with more matches in the first round).

If/when some of the remaining Lothian/Falkirk junior teams "jump ship" (Livingston United should be the first), the Lothian League might become too small in size and the rest might join the EoS League just to get some competition.  It would be hard to justify an 8-10 team competition isolated from everything else in the immediate area.  The top teams among what's left would do well in the current EoS setup, and would probably be challenging for promotion from the conferences at Tier 7.

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mcruic

[Bestsinceslicebread]

6 minutes ago, mcruic said:

144 teams in the South - 142 entered the cup this year due to 2 (Cumbernauld Colts and Arniston Rangers) infringing rules in last season's competition.

For the North - there's no pyramid beyond the Highland League's 17 clubs.  If you were to include the North Caledonian League, you'd get an extra 12 clubs- so 29 max.  The top North Caledonian clubs are approximately equal to the bottom Highland League clubs.

If all junior clubs eventually join the pyramid (and Tayside clubs move North) - you'd have:

157 in the South (17 Lowland, 48 East of Scotland, 12 South of Scotland, 67 West of Scotland, 13 Lothian/Falkirk juniors)
79 in the north (17 Highland, 12 North Caledonian, 17 Tayside Juniors, 33 North Juniors)
4 reserve teams that play in senior leagues (Stranraer, Caledonian Braves, University of Stirling, Nairn County) would be ineligible.

A national competition would have 236 teams and would be an 8 round affair (same as the current South competition, but with more matches in the first round).

If/when some of the remaining Lothian/Falkirk junior teams "jump ship" (Livingston United should be the first), the Lothian League might become too small in size and the rest might join the EoS League just to get some competition.  It would be hard to justify an 8-10 team competition isolated from everything else in the immediate area.  The top teams among what's left would do well in the current EoS setup, and would probably be challenging for promotion from the conferences at Tier 7.

 

 

 

superb, thanks for that

Regarding the Lothians Juniors in the EOS junior league.  I know personally from face to face chats with some committee men and coach's that 3 East junior teams are definitely leaving after this season to join the pyramid.  One of those teams, to be honest are run by the old guard of junior committee men and I was informed that even they realize that its best to move to the pyramid even though their heart is in the juniors

[mcruic]

25 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

superb, thanks for that

Regarding the Lothians Juniors in the EOS junior league.  I know personally from face to face chats with some committee men and coach's that 3 East junior teams are definitely leaving after this season to join the pyramid.  One of those teams, to be honest are run by the old guard of junior committee men and I was informed that even they realize that its best to move to the pyramid even though their heart is in the juniors

Some people don't understand that senior non-league is essentially now "the juniors" anyway. 

Highland League - 4 of 17 teams are ex-juniors
Lowland League - 3 of 17 teams are ex-juniors
West of Scotland League - 63 of 67 teams are ex-juniors
East of Scotland League - 37 of 48 teams are ex-juniors (including 14 of the 18 Tier 6 clubs)

Exceptions: areas where junior football didn't take off:
South of Scotland League - 0 of 12 teams are ex juniors
North Caledonian League - 0 of 12 teams are ex juniors

So, of the 149 "senior" non-league clubs (discounting the South of Scotland and North Caledonian), 107 are really juniors - that's 72% - with the numbers being almost 9 in 10 in Tiers 6 and 7.  A couple of other teams are ex-amateurs, leaving fewer than 40 traditionally senior clubs.

Tier 5 has 7 of 34 ex-juniors (21%)
Tier 6 has 33 of 38 ex-juniors (87%)
Tier 7 has 67 of 77 ex-juniors (87%)


 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mcruic

[Bestsinceslicebread]

pmslllllllllllllllllllllll, I was just about to watch the muppet show there and guess what, something caught my eye lolololololol

 

Guess what

Some people don't understand that senior non-league is essentially now "JUNIORS NO MORE" anyway. 

Highland League - 4 of 17 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
Lowland League - 3 of 17 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
West of Scotland League - 63 of 67 teams JUNIORS NO MORE
East of Scotland League - 37 of 48 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE (including 14 of the 18 Tier 6 clubs)

Exceptions: areas where junior football didn't take off:
South of Scotland League - 0 of 12 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
North Caledonian League - 0 of 12 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE

So, of the 149 "senior" non-league clubs (discounting the South of Scotland and North Caledonian), 107 are really JUNIORS NO MORE - that's 72% - with the numbers being almost 9 in 10 in Tiers 6 and 7.

Tier 5 has 7 of 34 JUNIORS NO MORE (21%)
Tier 6 has 33 of 38 JUNIORS NO MORE (87%)
Tier 7 has 67 of 77JUNIORS NO MORE (87%)

 

Fact of the matter, YOU SAID IT, EX-JUNIORS, no wonder they left or do you wonder why they left

Think of this when you go to bed, the juniors are finishedddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

 

pmsllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

 

You need help, serious, seek some council and then come back and act the way you do, as least you would have tired to get help

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[mcruic]

Just to be clear, I think the juniors should all join the senior setup.  My point was simply that some junior teams are acting like they are moving to a foreign country, when in reality they'll be playing much the same teams they are already playing, and a few new ones, which surely freshens things up a bit (that's what I meant by senior non-league football being essentially the same thing as what they are already playing in - "the juniors").

The biggest problem so far seems to be the north - there doesn't seem to be an avenue to "make a move" like Kelty and then the rest did in the EoS League.  So I think we could see the junior continuing in the North, and maybe Tayside for a wee while yet.

 

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

22 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Just to be clear, I think the juniors should all join the senior setup.  My point was simply that some junior teams are acting like they are moving to a foreign country, when in reality they'll be playing much the same teams they are already playing, and a few new ones, which surely freshens things up a bit (that's what I meant by senior non-league football being essentially the same thing as what they are already playing in - "the juniors").

The biggest problem so far seems to be the north - there doesn't seem to be an avenue to "make a move" like Kelty and then the rest did in the EoS League.  So I think we could see the junior continuing in the North, and maybe Tayside for a wee while yet.

 

 

Anyways Im out, I cant be bothered with this

Edited September 12, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[mcruic]

Hmm.  Seems you've confused me with someone else.  Anyway, my personal opinion is that there should be no division between senior/junior.  If you check out my other posts, you will see that.  I have posted many times on proposed pyramid structure, for example.  I may have worded the previous post ambiguously, but I can assure you I have no other profile.

[rncaa]

3 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

pmslllllllllllllllllllllll, I was just about to watch the muppet show there and guess what, something caught my eye lolololololol

 

Guess what

Some people don't understand that senior non-league is essentially now "JUNIORS NO MORE" anyway. 

Highland League - 4 of 17 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
Lowland League - 3 of 17 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
West of Scotland League - 63 of 67 teams JUNIORS NO MORE
East of Scotland League - 37 of 48 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE (including 14 of the 18 Tier 6 clubs)

Exceptions: areas where junior football didn't take off:
South of Scotland League - 0 of 12 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE
North Caledonian League - 0 of 12 teams are JUNIORS NO MORE

So, of the 149 "senior" non-league clubs (discounting the South of Scotland and North Caledonian), 107 are really JUNIORS NO MORE - that's 72% - with the numbers being almost 9 in 10 in Tiers 6 and 7.

Tier 5 has 7 of 34 JUNIORS NO MORE (21%)
Tier 6 has 33 of 38 JUNIORS NO MORE (87%)
Tier 7 has 67 of 77JUNIORS NO MORE (87%)

 

Fact of the matter, YOU SAID IT, EX-JUNIORS, no wonder they left or do you wonder why they left

Think of this when you go to bed, the juniors are finishedddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

 

pmsllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

 

You need help, serious, seek some council and then come back and act the way you do, as least you would have tired to get help

 

For god sake the crackpot that is franco has well and lost the plot! 

Brady has had more clubs than most have had got dinners, hunted from a few also. 

Full of pish as usual thinking he is the second coming in youth football coaching when the reality is he's a clown. 

Who will it be after current club cant be many clubs left for you to pollute. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by rncaa