West of Scotland Football, What Is The Future?

[Doonhamer1969]

On 15/04/2020 at 08:23, the tin man said:

The lowland league really has to relegate more all 3 champions should be goin up

Even 2 would be progress.

[TFW]

11 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

What do those who follow them really think about the current quality of e.g. Talbot, in relation to SPFL teams ?

From results ive seen over the last couple of years, they look like they'd be perhaps mid table SPFL League One level.

Is that about right ? Obviously be guided by those more in the know of the (now former) West Premiership.

Given our displays in the last few seasons, I think Division 1 would easily be accommodated. Same as it will for the likes of Cove, Edinburgh and others who will eventually move up. The driftwood will drop out of the SPFL and find it's own level, very much the same as East Stirling and Berwick are doing now. 

[Guest]

One off cup games are very different to a full league season.

The standard of the LL and Highland league are a step up for clubs used to top end junior league seasons. The spfl across a season is a whole lot harder than the usual top junior league season.

[the rambler]

2 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

 

I don't get why some people find their continued existence at Tier 6 so offensive...they cater for a clearly-defined and discrete part of the country after all.

They do, but does their Champion deserve to be promoted to the LL if all 3 League Champions were to be automatically promoted as was suggested? The standard is very poor. The points of Tiers surely is for everyone to find their level. This is a geographic anomaly. 

[Marten]

I think 16-16-16-19, with the bottom tier split 9/10 with inter-conference games makes the most sense. That give space for new applicants as well, I wouldn't be surprised if more amateurs apply in future seasons. Some of them might have plans to improve their ground to be able to join, maybe there are also clubs who didn't apply now but want to join at the bottom a bit later to prevent being hammered by some of the bigger teams.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, ArabAuslander said:

You can always split Tier 8 into two 17/18 conferences or three loosely regionalised divisions of 11 or 12. Also depends on how many applicant clubs you could have next season

That's obviously an option, though given they moved away from regionalisation recently I'm not sure there would be an appetite for that. I wasn't suggesting conferences at T9 btw, just saying that if they did then inter-conference matches are a smart idea.

1 hour ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Yeah, agree re 10 and 9in the leagues, but teams could just play each other 3 times to avoid the inter conference.

Surely it's better not to play the same opponents 3 times when you could play some once and some twice?

[GordonS]

59 minutes ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

What do those who follow them really think about the current quality of e.g. Talbot, in relation to SPFL teams ?

From results ive seen over the last couple of years, they look like they'd be perhaps mid table SPFL League One level.

Is that about right ? Obviously be guided by those more in the know of the (now former) West Premiership.

From the cup ties I would say they're better than Cove, so they're currently better than everyone in L2. The ceiling of their potential is probably to be one of those part-time clubs that make it to the Championship, like Alloa, Dumbarton or... Brechin.

But who knows which clubs will seize the opportunities in the new system, or whether Talbot will be able to sustain their recent successes? If we'd been here 10-15 years ago we'd have been talking about Linlithgow Rose shooting up the divisions, now we don't look like getting out of the EoS any time soon. We'll see.

[Hillonearth]

35 minutes ago, the rambler said:

They do, but does their Champion deserve to be promoted to the LL if all 3 League Champions were to be automatically promoted as was suggested? The standard is very poor. The points of Tiers surely is for everyone to find their level. This is a geographic anomaly. 

Short of three automatic relegation slots from the LL being opened up - which isn't going to happen any time soon - that won't be the case though....and yeah, it probably would be inequitable were that to happen.

There are more inequitable things that probably need addressing before that'll come to pass though...the pyramid in name only in the north of the country where 17 clubs have 50% of the chances to be promoted to the SPFL while 140-odd are now playing for the same prize south of the Tay for example.

As things stand, and I'd imagine for at least the next few years it'll be a three-way playoff with one of the entrants more than likely to be consistently the weakest of the three by some margin. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Hillonearth

[Guest]

They do, but does their Champion deserve to be promoted to the LL if all 3 League Champions were to be automatically promoted as was suggested? The standard is very poor. The points of Tiers surely is for everyone to find their level. This is a geographic anomaly. 

If their champion was licensed then yes. That is generally how it works.

If the nrsjfa join the North pyramid does that mean their licensed champion shouldn't get promoted because they are perceived to be a poorer standard than the west region?

If you do away with the 3rd promotion place from the sosfl the LL would then only have 2 places up for grabs instead of 3. If you keep the 3rd place and the sosfl champion isn't licensed under the current format the place goes to the nearest eligible club in the eosfl or wosfl.....losing the sosfl most likely loses that place from the reckoning. Them staying where they are is the least problematic aspect of the process, particularly if they are so poor and they don't want licensed anyway, means the eosfl and wosfl would likely have a shot at 3 spaces most seasons as opposed to 2 if the sosfl drops a level.

[craigkillie]

5 hours ago, G4Mac said:

The LL won't open their relegation up until there is a need. Next seasons winner of the wosfl won't be licensed in time to get promoted to the LL so we are looking at least towards the end of the following season before there are any wosfl clubs able to be promoted.

The sosfl doesn't have to move, if their champion wins their league and has spent the time getting licensed, why should they not be given promotion?

Why wouldn't next season's WOSFL winners be licensed in time? I can't remember the exact deadline for an application, but the SFA licensing board don't meet until February so surely clubs still have several months to get an application together. Many clubs are already all but compliant anyway, and now that they are playing in the pyramid I can't see many obstacles at all.

[Guest]

Why wouldn't next season's WOSFL winners be licensed in time? I can't remember the exact deadline for an application, but the SFA licensing board don't meet until February so surely clubs still have several months to get an application together. Many clubs are already all but compliant anyway, and now that they are playing in the pyramid I can't see many obstacles at all.

You have the process wrong.

Clubs must have their paperwork and audit completed by February. That is the cut off date. June is the sfa board meeting for ratification, anything after February doesn't get progressed. Given the licence people are a small team and already have a backlog due to covid I doubt the wosfl champion will be licensed in time for next season.

My club, Dunipace, has taken pretty much 18 months to get through the process. From application to audit to submission to the sfa for June ratification. (Still not confirmed for ratification this year either and everything is done and in place, just waiting on the sfa).

My opinion is based solely on the length of time it has taken to get through the process for us and others.

I may stand to be corrected but I doubt it.

Also, if a club who isn't licensed wins the overall title then they won't get promoted either.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 hour ago, the rambler said:

They do, but does their Champion deserve to be promoted to the LL if all 3 League Champions were to be automatically promoted as was suggested?

If it did get to the point where (if licensed) all three regional champions were promoted, with three coming down, we would most likely end up in a scenario where the best of the EoSFL and WoSFL would go on to establish themselves in the LL and beyond. The established LL clubs who've been there from the start, such as EKFC, Spartans etc and the clubs who come down fro the SPFL will forever find themselves far above a level the SoSL champs can compete with. So, yeah, Dalbeattie, Gretna and Threave might win promotion but it will, 99/100, be for one year only as they're unlikely to finish 13th or higher.

If that's the future SoS clubs want, yo-yoing in perpetuity, then so be it but I doubt they would and I think we would see the SoS clubs decide their future lay one tier lower as a feeder for the WoSPL.
 

Edited April 16, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Guest]

If it did get to the point where (if licensed) all three regional champions were promoted, with three coming down, we would most likely end up in a scenario where the best of the EoSFL and WoSFL would go on to establish themselves in the LL and beyond. The established LL clubs who've been there from the start, such as EKFC, Spartans etc and the clubs who come down fro the SPFL will forever find themselves far above a level the SoSL champs can compete with. So, yeah, Dalbeattie, Gretna and Threave might win promotion but it will, 99/100, be for one year only as they're unlikely to finish 13th or higher.

If that's the future SoS clubs want, yo-yoing in perpetuity, then so be it but I doubt they would and I think we would see the SoS clubs decide their future lay one tier lower as a feeder for the WoSPL.
 

Why would they want to demote themselves from tier 6? They are a stand alone entity that causes no other association any harm where they are.

If the sosfl drops out of the way do you think the LL will keep 3 spaces with only 2 leagues underneath it?

I doubt they would. Whilst they are the most forward thinking and open part of the pyramid structure there is no sense in them having 3 relegation spots for 2 leagues.

By demoting the sosfl we would then go from a 3 promotion place situation to a 2. (If the sosfl winner isn't licensed the wosfl or eosfl highest licensed club would be promoted, if both 2nd places sides were licensed they would play off against one another for the place)

[Dev]

12 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

You have the process wrong.

Clubs must have their paperwork and audit completed by February. That is the cut off date. June is the sfa board meeting for ratification, anything after February doesn't get progressed. Given the licence people are a small team and already have a backlog due to covid I doubt the wosfl champion will be licensed in time for next season.

My club, Dunipace, has taken pretty much 18 months to get through the process. From application to audit to submission to the sfa for June ratification. (Still not confirmed for ratification this year either and everything is done and in place, just waiting on the sfa).

My opinion is based solely on the length of time it has taken to get through the process for us and others.

I may stand to be corrected but I doubt it.

Also, if a club who isn't licensed wins the overall title then they won't get promoted either.

Surely there are some clubs which have started the process without being officially within the SFA Processes so this would save some time? The criteria are there for all to see and they will have seen which way the wind was blowing a long time ago.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Dev
.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

You have the process wrong.

Clubs must have their paperwork and audit completed by February. That is the cut off date. June is the sfa board meeting for ratification, anything after February doesn't get progressed. Given the licence people are a small team and already have a backlog due to covid I doubt the wosfl champion will be licensed in time for next season.

My club, Dunipace, has taken pretty much 18 months to get through the process. From application to audit to submission to the sfa for June ratification. (Still not confirmed for ratification this year either and everything is done and in place, just waiting on the sfa).

My opinion is based solely on the length of time it has taken to get through the process for us and others.

I may stand to be corrected but I doubt it.

Also, if a club who isn't licensed wins the overall title then they won't get promoted either.

A club like Kelty was able to get licenced within less than a year. They were even licenced ahead of LTHV in the 2018-19 season. When they were having their first league game against each other Kelty already had their licence passed and the uncertainty was over LTHV.

There's the expectation that a club like Auchinleck Talbot should be able to meet the licencing criteria with little work required. Kilwinning might be another one since that's been the focus of their ground improvemets. For other potential title contenders its probably too soon. Not only will most of them have floodlights to source but likely other ground improvements that would not be completed by a February deadline.

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

8 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Why would they want to demote themselves from tier 6? They are a stand alone entity that causes no other association any harm where they are.

If the sosfl drops out of the way do you think the LL will keep 3 spaces with only 2 leagues underneath it?

I doubt they would. Whilst they are the most forward thinking and open part of the pyramid structure there is no sense in them having 3 relegation spots for 2 leagues.

By demoting the sosfl we would then go from a 3 promotion place situation to a 2. (If the sosfl winner isn't licensed the wosfl or eosfl highest licensed club would be promoted, if both 2nd places sides were licensed they would play off against one another for the place)

I can't say whether they would or wouldn't. I just think the appeal of winning a local league only to follow it up with a season of hammerings would lose its appeal. Let's say, for argument's sake, Threave manage to get a decent team together and win the SoSFL and their players are having a great year. How many would stick around for a year of far more travelling just to get their arses handed to them at the end of it when they could switch to Dalbeattie the next season and have a more enjoyable time remaining in the SoSFL?

In that scenario you wont just see clubs having one good season then one awful season but whole teams of players remaining at that level switching sides each season. It would be the overall detriment of the SoSFL and they might decide moving down a tier is the better option for the league in the long term. That would be for the SoS's members to decide, and no-one should force or pressure them into doing it, but I just think it's something the SoS league may have to look at in future (but it's a while away yet in any case)

And, yes, I think the LL would keep three places if the SoSFL dropped down a tier. I'm not suggesting this is something that would happen in the next 2/3 years and, by the time this would happen there would be ex LL and even ex SPFL clubs in tier 6. LL clubs would be aware they're one bad season away from relegation and, long term, an easier route back up would suit them better. Having a play off between 2nd place in EoS and WoS to make up the the loss of the SoSFL wouldn't be a massive change.

Edited April 16, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[BMan]

I would be surprised if the likes of Talbot, Petershill, Cumnock and others haven't been working away in the background. You can pretty much do the work required without needing too much involvement from the SFA Licencing Dept.

So for example, Talbots lights go up in June, that may be the final box to tick and they ask to be audited, they'll be well ahead of the February deadline.

[Guest]

Listen I don't doubt that some will have been smart enough to start the process, what is clear though is that most think a licence is all about cover and flooights....I can assure you it really isn't.

There is a whole host of areas to cover off during the audit and each audit lasts pretty much the full day.

The audit team are small, they will have some volume of backlog from clubs in the eos from this year, talbot for example, may well have everything in place but their application won't just jump up the pile, from my experiences of the licence guys (very helpful team and good honest people btw) is they shoot with a very straight bat and are process driven, they don't care who the club is and what standing they may have.

So yes whilst it isn't impossible for clubs like Talbot (or kelty who were given as another example) to get through the process a little quicker, it will depend on a number of factors, including when the covid lock down is lifted and when clubs can get their applications in.

I would also say that it isn't unthinkable that talbot may not win the overall title, so there really would be limited teams who stand a shot at both being licensed and winning the overall title in time for next seasons end.

The sfa also don't seem to be in a rush anymore to provide clubs with their licence either, which is another hurdle for clubs to overcome.

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, BMan said:

I would be surprised if the likes of Talbot, Petershill, Cumnock and others haven't been working away in the background. You can pretty much do the work required without needing too much involvement from the SFA Licencing Dept.

So for example, Talbots lights go up in June, that may be the final box to tick and they ask to be audited, they'll be well ahead of the February deadline.

Petershill and Cumnock we know have been working on it. And Petershill at least had someone come round for some sort of physical look and raised an issue with their fencing(?) as you could see through it. Something like that.

[Doonhamer1969]

6 hours ago, the rambler said:

The argument has been made on here that the distance from D +G to Central is less than the current West Region. 

Off the top of my head...South Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Lanarkshire could argue travel is similar. 

I'm not sure what youre getting at there about the distance.

Eg Castle Douglas to Glasgow (A713) 85.7 miles 

Girvan to Glasgow (furthest south WoSFL team) 58.1 miles.

Girvan to Vale of Leven (furthest within West area) 75.3. miles

Still less than most of the SoS' teams distance from the Central Belt.