The SPFL recommendation?

[Shadwell Dog]

Certainly haven't heard much from sturgeon as to whether money will be made available to get clubs through the period of time without crowds that they are enforcing so it looks like clubs will be left to fend for their selves

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, roman_bairn said:

Nope. Doesn’t equate to me suggesting a major crime wave..

Where did I say major?

You said it was likely that people with nothing to do because football clubs might fold could get involved in crime.

I dread being pelted with Werthers Originals as the erstwhile season ticket holders of clubs rampage through our towns.

[roman_bairn]

Where did I say major?

Exactly my point.....

[Shadwell Dog]

14 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Where did I say major?

You said it was likely that people with nothing to do because football clubs might fold could get involved in crime.

I dread being pelted with Werthers Originals as the erstwhile season ticket holders of clubs rampage through our towns.

I get robbed every saturday when I go to the pie hut at the fitbaw.

[GABC123]

41 minutes ago, sirscottyoung said:

Why do Clyde care so much?
You will be playing against dross again with the exception of cove. Not telling me you don't fancy your chances winning that or coming second to get promoted to the new second tier...

You currently have no chance of that. A good season in the new league and you are there...

You are thinking short term disadvantages when the long term advantage is you are one good season away from some seriously big gates etc.

And yes if my team were in that position I would say go for it. If you build an unreal team then season 1 you win the bottom tier and get to championship or whatever it's called. Then have a season like Arbroath did last year and your in the premier League... Cmon guys just think of it.

Alternatively, Clyde could have one bad season (which lets face it, happens a lot) and that’s them relegated again, despite a fairly comfortable finished the previous season in the league above. And yes, it would be a relegation. Perhaps not in terms of “tiers” but in terms of the teams you are playing, the grounds you are visiting, the number of away fans visiting you, the ability to attract decent players and therefore the quality of football on display. Do you really think Clyde could compete with the likes of Cove and Kelty? Or even Peterhead?  It’s pretty obvious that Clyde do not have the resources or fan base to do so.  It’s also pretty obvious why Clyde fans “care so much”.
 

 

[roman_bairn]

I get robbed every saturday when I go to the pie hut at the fitbaw.

Especially that van inside Peterhead’s ground that you wait over 30 mins in a queue whilst the game continues, to pay £4 for the most foul tasting burger I ever had the displeasure...

 

[Shadwell Dog]

6 minutes ago, roman_bairn said:

Especially that van inside Peterhead’s ground that you wait over 30 mins in a queue whilst the game continues, to pay £4 for the most foul tasting burger I ever had the displeasure...

 

Stinking they are.

[Ivo den Bieman]

56 minutes ago, lorenzo71 said:

Listen to yourself. You think it didnt impact millions anyway?were u not weeping about the impact earlier.Are we not still paying for it.?

No arguing with a Tory voter.I'll leave this here.

C'mon that's below the belt

In an ideal world I'd like there to be no private housing (all houses owned by the state), no or as close to no unemployment as possible, self-sufficiency, free universal healthcare with private companies totally banned from the health service, generous budgets for sport and culture, and everyone running about in a Moskvitch or a Volga (the only two types of cars permitted).

However we have to play the cards we are dealt, not the ones we would like to hold.

The point I was trying to make above (and I suspect Sergeant too) was that in times of limited funds faced with unprecedented demand from an economy in a tight tailspin, it really is hard to make a case for a state subsidy for football clubs at the expense of other bodies / institutions that require urgent help.

In times of post-2008 austerity, local governments were faced with impossible choices- keep libraries and museums open, or cut meals on wheels and home help. No one actually wanted to close museums and some libraries, but to argue that they should remain open at the expense of social care for old people was impossible. In Moray, all cultural funding was withdrawn in response to this dilemma, for example. This wasn't the fault of local government but penny pinching rules from the centre, who cheerfully detest local authorities and have largely taken away all their meaningful powers, but have left them to carry the can for horrible decisions such as the one I just described.

In this case, in this crisis, which is going to be much, much worse and have much longer lasting consequences than the 2008 credit crunch, I'm afraid our clubs will be occupying the "museums and libraries" position. No one actually wants them to close, but that's not the same as providing scarce resource to keep them open. As a result, once the UEFA money has been distributed and kept all our lights on for a few more months, the major burden of keeping our clubs moving will fall on our club officials and us as fans, and whatever creative funding models we can come up with, collectively.

This isn't a Tory argument along the lines of "the state must let the market decide". It's sadly where we are economically.

 

[sirscottyoung]

Alternatively, Clyde could have one bad season (which lets face it, happens a lot) and that’s them relegated again, despite a fairly comfortable finished the previous season in the league above. And yes, it would be a relegation. Perhaps not in terms of “tiers” but in terms of the teams you are playing, the grounds you are visiting, the number of away fans visiting you, the ability to attract decent players and therefore the quality of football on display. Do you really think Clyde could compete with the likes of Cove and Kelty? Or even Peterhead? [emoji2962] It’s pretty obvious that Clyde do not have the resources or fan base to do so.  It’s also pretty obvious why Clyde fans “care so much”.
 
 

Glass half empty [emoji106]

Clyde ahead of peterhead. Cove be a challenge, are kelty that much of a challenge? Don't think so

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, Paco said:

 

This is a well thought out and reasoned post, I just happen to disagree with it entirely.

If a factory opens up at the end of lockdown and there’s just not the same demand for their product anymore, they’ll fold. That’s not nice but it’s the harsh reality of the free market that we all live in. As you rightly point out, this will be happening all over the country and there’s very little anyone can do to prevent it.

However the hospitality and leisure sectors, which football comes under, will not be opening up at the end of lockdown. There’s not even any guarantee they’ll be able to open properly this year. Pubs might be allowed to open eventually with social distancing and table service only, restaurants might be allowed to open with social distancing applied which massively reduces their capacity, and yes, football teams might be allowed to play their games - only without any customers.

These industries are unquestionably going to need further state aid. They will be the very last industries to go back to normality, it might not even happen at all until we have a vaccine. It isn’t as simple as being the same as the factory that closes because people won’t buy their product, or the airline that folds because people won’t or can’t afford to fly. These industries are prevented from opening themselves back up to their customer base by state restrictions, it simply isn’t feasible for the majority to survive under such scenarios. That isn’t just a case of 30 football teams starting the next Scottish season so there’s bigger things to worry about, it’s derelict High Streets devoid of pubs, restaurants and cinemas, gyms gone, theatres finished, music venues closed, hairdressers and beauty salons closed. Millions upon millions of (additional) unemployed, out of the working population and a drain on the state.

This isn’t to say these businesses shouldn’t at least try to adapt and I’m sure football clubs will. There’s all sorts of talk of streaming games and buying ‘virtual food’, a Danish team are planning to show matches in a drive through cinema, etc etc etc. They’ll also benefit from crowdfunding in a way that your local Pure Gym or Odeon won’t. But fundamentally they’re being asked to survive without the overwhelming majority of their income. There simply has to be some support there or the country will lose a lot more than Stenhousemuir or Elgin City.

 

In addition to these good points, there is also the fact that football contributes a great deal to the country, economically, socially and culturally rather than just being another business. This academic report, albeit one commissioned by the SFA, suggests that football is worth £1.25bn to Scottish society in terms of the health and economic benefits it brings. The SPFL alone is worth a net £214m to the Scottish economy according to another report from Strathclyde Uni. A lot of football "customers" aren't going to go elsewhere if their team disappears either - it's not the same as if the local hairdresser closes down and they have to go to a different one.

That's before we even touch on the emotional and cultural aspects of the sport. It's the conduit through which whole families spend time together and is an essential part of the fabric of our whole society in a way that very few other industries are. Any government who doesn't understand the importance of this doesn't really understand the people they are supposed to be governing.

Edited May 6, 2020 by craigkillie

[Blootoon87]

Especially that van inside Peterhead’s ground that you wait over 30 mins in a queue whilst the game continues, to pay £4 for the most foul tasting burger I ever had the displeasure... 

It's never £4 for a burger at Peterhead. Especially for Clyde fans, they get them for free.

[GABC123]

13 minutes ago, sirscottyoung said:

Glass half empty

Clyde ahead of peterhead. Cove be a challenge, are kelty that much of a challenge? Don't think so

Nah, it’s called realism. Just took Clyde 10 years to get out league 2. Why would it be so easy this time. Yes, money talks. 

[roman_bairn]

It's never £4 for a burger at Peterhead. Especially for Clyde fans, they get them for free.

I always believed that they were fleecing the large Falkirk support that first game of the season.

You’ve now convinced me....

[lorenzo71]

15 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

C'mon that's below the belt

In an ideal world I'd like there to be no private housing (all houses owned by the state), no or as close to no unemployment as possible, self-sufficiency, free universal healthcare with private companies totally banned from the health service, generous budgets for sport and culture, and everyone running about in a Moskvitch or a Volga (the only two types of cars permitted).

However we have to play the cards we are dealt, not the ones we would like to hold.

The point I was trying to make above (and I suspect Sergeant too) was that in times of limited funds faced with unprecedented demand from an economy in a tight tailspin, it really is hard to make a case for a state subsidy for football clubs at the expense of other bodies / institutions that require urgent help.

In times of post-2008 austerity, local governments were faced with impossible choices- keep libraries and museums open, or cut meals on wheels and home help. No one actually wanted to close museums and some libraries, but to argue that they should remain open at the expense of social care for old people was impossible. In Moray, all cultural funding was withdrawn in response to this dilemma, for example. This wasn't the fault of local government but penny pinching rules from the centre, who cheerfully detest local authorities and have largely taken away all their meaningful powers, but have left them to carry the can for horrible decisions such as the one I just described.

In this case, in this crisis, which is going to be much, much worse and have much longer lasting consequences than the 2008 credit crunch, I'm afraid our clubs will be occupying the "museums and libraries" position. No one actually wants them to close, but that's not the same as providing scarce resource to keep them open. As a result, once the UEFA money has been distributed and kept all our lights on for a few more months, the major burden of keeping our clubs moving will fall on our club officials and us as fans, and whatever creative funding models we can come up with, collectively.

This isn't a Tory argument along the lines of "the state must let the market decide". It's sadly where we are economically.

 

Im hardly against the private sector FWIW.And im certainly no communist.And i perfectly understand your points and sergeants .But without turning this forum into an episode of Question Time lets just say when the powers that be need money they find it no matter what e.g iraq war and subsequent conflicts..bank bailouts etc etc

When its a crunch like this or even in a  normal recession( which are cyclical) money is suddenly very tight and cuts have to be made.I am simply looking at the bigger picture rightly or wrongly.

[lorenzo71]

1 hour ago, roman_bairn said:

Where did I say that?

'This is exactly how Nazi Germany started.A lot of layabouts with nothing better to do...'

You can but laugh

[roman_bairn]

'This is exactly how Nazi Germany started.A lot of layabouts with nothing better to do...'[emoji1]
You can but laugh

You do realise you have moved this from sweetie paper rustling to WW3 in the Sergeants eyes don’t you?…

[Jack Burton]

Why do Clyde care so much?
You will be playing against dross again with the exception of cove. Not telling me you don't fancy your chances winning that or coming second to get promoted to the new second tier...

You currently have no chance of that. A good season in the new league and you are there...

You are thinking short term disadvantages when the long term advantage is you are one good season away from some seriously big gates etc.

And yes if my team were in that position I would say go for it. If you build an unreal team then season 1 you win the bottom tier and get to championship or whatever it's called. Then have a season like Arbroath did last year and your in the premier League... Cmon guys just think of it.

You've answered your own question. The exact reason we care so much is because will be playing all the dross again we just spent the last 9 or 10 years playing. Our crowds are up over 300 compared with last season. We played Annan 6 times and Edinburgh 7 times during 18/19.

We will also struggle to keep hold of our better players. If a player gets an offer from us and Dumbarton or Montrose then we will probably lose out because they don't want to play all the dross again.

I don't think we would come back up again first time with Cove splashing the cash, QP supposedly going full time and Peterhead can out spend us too.

[DA Baracus]

6 hours ago, Shadwell Dog said:

He's highlighting the fact that our clubs rely much more on gates receipts than others.  Well that's maybe because he cant organise a decent tv deal or get any bloody main sponsor .

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone could get a TV and/or sponsorship deal for Scottish football that mean clubs don't get the majority of their income from match day revenue?

5 hours ago, roman_bairn said:

This isn’t about clubs standing on their own feet...it’s about an extraordinary event that few foresaw. I think clubs generally are standing on their own feet but if you have no income and still need to pay wages, rent etc, what are you expected to survive on?
Also, if you are suggesting that players in the lower leagues need to accept even lower wages then I suspect a number of them would just chuck it and get a real job to survive....

In what way is football not a 'real' job? What is a 'real' job?

4 hours ago, haufdaft said:

So called culture of opera and classical music has been subsidised with millions year in, year out but working class culture has to pay is own way though a once in a century event?

Football hasn't been working class for years. 

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Jack Burton said:

We will also struggle to keep hold of our better players. If a player gets an offer from us and Dumbarton or Montrose then we will probably lose out because they don't want to play all the dross again.

You'll more than likely hold on to your best player.

[Shadwell Dog]

1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

Are you seriously suggesting that anyone could get a TV and/or sponsorship deal for Scottish football that mean clubs don't get the majority of their income from match day revenue?

In what way is football not a 'real' job? What is a 'real' job?

Football hasn't been working class for years. 

Our clubs rely on gate receipts far more than most. In fact its 3 times more than the european average.