Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 39 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said: I agree that the sponsors line is a sideshow, but the idea that nulling and voiding isn't unfair because the titles haven't been won yet just doesn't stand up. There's no perfect solution either way, but you can't seriously argue that ending it as it is an egregious injustice to Hearts, Partick and Stranraer while simultaneously saying nulling and voiding wouldn't be an injustice for Celtic, Dundee United, Raith and Cove. If it isn't possible to finish the season then some clubs are going to feel hard done by regardless of what option is taken and there's no way to avoid that, but when it comes down to it you have a choice between pretending three quarters of the season haven't happened and leaving clubs where they are, punishing clubs who've had good seasons and rewarding clubs who've had bad ones, or calling the season early based on the three quarters we have played, rewarding the clubs who've had good seasons and punishing those who have had bad ones. Both of those have an unfair outcome for someone and finishing the season would obviously be the preferred option, but I'd far rather base the decision on the significant proportion of the season that has happened and let the clubs who've been shite take the hit than wipe the whole thing and hurt the clubs who've performed well. I appreciate that League One is less clear cut because it's the only division that still has a title race while the others were inevitably going to be won the current leaders anyway, but the same principle applies. It is tough on Falkirk, Airdrie, Montrose & East Fife but it leaves them in the exact same position that null and void would anyway, so I can't see why Falkirk fans are up in arms and threatening boycotts over one but not the other. There is no entirely fair way out of this, but ending it as it stands is clearly a better option than null and void. Surely some form of league reconstruction is the fairest way. However, if the clubs vote yes now without any concrete proposal on the table you can bet it will never happen and the chance will have gone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kebab Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Had this in the EF Thread but the main yap about it appears to be here...Null and void the season!!! No promotion or relegation, dish out the prize money on current standings and (hopefully) start again next season, trying to squeeze in the remaining ties is unrealistic and only has knock on effects to the following term, which I have my doubts will kickoff on time anyway and can see reconstruction of the schedule in some kind of form anyway, whether it’s playing less League games or ditching a couple of the cups!!! Dishing out titles and relegations to Clubs who haven’t (through no fault of their own) fulfilled the required fixtures goes against the entire ethos of the game, the Clubs shouting the loudest for this are obviously the ones with the most to gain, which also smacks of trying to take advantage of a hideous, terrible situation, remember no matter the gap between 1st and 2nd, no trophies have been handed out yet, which means every team can still be caught, NO team has won a League yet, yes most currently at the top may have gone on to do so, but to go from awarding anything until it is mathematically impossible to be caught, which has been the rule of thumb since the year dot, to then having this chucked out because some Clubs have a louder voice than others is unjust and unfair!!! As I said the only FAIR way is to bite the bullet, void the season just past and start again next season, as in the fact that no Club has “mathematically” won their respective Division, neither has a Club “mathematically” been relegated either, so really the only option, the only fairer option would be the scenario that sees the least amount of Clubs benefiting from it and by Null and Voiding I can only see ONE Club truly benefiting and that would be Brechin!!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFC1878 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 As far as I can see, the problem with null and void is that legally, the season up until now will not have existed, therefore the sponsors/broadcasters have paid for something that didn’t exist and will be entitled to reclaim their investment. This would result in no prize money being available which would lead to a financial crisis for some clubs, with some inevitably being lost. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52227551 Tom English reckons the main sticking point is the championship. Think he's being a bit blade about league1/2 based on what Bill Clark was saying... Edited April 9, 2020 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 minute ago, AFC1878 said: As far as I can see, the problem with null and void is that legally, the season up until now will not have existed, therefore the sponsors/broadcasters have paid for something that didn’t exist and will be entitled to reclaim their investment. This would result in no prize money being available which would lead to a financial crisis for some clubs, with some inevitably being lost. Has this actually been clarified by anyone? Has the spfl gone to its major sponsors and asked as it seems very much that in every case where this is mentioned it's always a could or a maybe. I would have thought that the shirt sponsors of every club in scotland could ask for some of their cash back if the season ends now as they will have expected to see their name on the club shirts for a minimum number of games. Have ladbrokes come out and said what they would do if the season was null and voided? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Shadwell Dog said: Has this actually been clarified by anyone? Has the spfl gone to its major sponsors and asked as it seems very much that in every case where this is mentioned it's always a could or a maybe. I would have thought that the shirt sponsors of every club in scotland could ask for some of their cash back if the season ends now as they will have expected to see their name on the club shirts for a minimum number of games. Have ladbrokes come out and said what they would do if the season was null and voided? See the link in my post above, Tom English article that flashes out some of the arguments for and against. Edited April 9, 2020 by renton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, renton said: See the link in my post above, Tom Rnglish article that flashes out some of the arguments for and against. Again he says ' Right now, there's about £8m of TV money sitting in the SPFL bank account awaiting distribution, but it can only be released when final league places are known'. which is complete tosh. The premier have already paid out some cash without knowing final places. The epl and efl are handing out prize money again without knowing the final places. There is absolutely no reason why some or all of this money couldnt be handed out now and then decisions on promotion/relegation made at a later date. Edited April 9, 2020 by Shadwell Dog 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Shadwell Dog said: Again he says ' Right now, there's about £8m of TV money sitting in the SPFL bank account awaiting distribution, but it can only be released when final league places are known'. which is complete tosh. The premier have already paid out some cash without knowing final places. The epl and efl are handing out prize money again without knowing the final places. There is absolutely no reason why some or all of this money couldnt be handed out now and then decisions on promotion/relegation made at a later date. That's certainly what Hearts and The Rangers think. The SPFL board disagree. Maybe it's all worded different in different associations? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 4 hours ago, RandomGuy. said: Are you finding it hard to understand why theyd split it 3 ways and not 4? 4 hours ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: Are you alluding to some sort of need for a majority? Because all 75 percent votes must pass, so 3, 4 or 123 makes no difference in that regard. 4 hours ago, Shadwell Dog said: Enlighten me? Don't think he's going to tell us Shadz. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, renton said: That's certainly what Hearts and The Rangers think. The SPFL board disagree. Maybe it's all worded different in different associations? The board want everyone to accept their proposal. They're not interested in any other opinions. They're railroading clubs into voting now by telling them they can only get money if they vote yes. Even though the premier have already started handing out cash. The added glimmer of league reconstruction to sweeten the deal which will never appear if clubs vote yes now without getting a concrete proposal on the table. If we had a proposal of ending the league now with a definite proposal of league reconstruction to help soften the blow on the table now the vote would sail through. Smaller clubs should be saying come back to us with a proposal including reconstruction and you've got a deal until then give us the minimum prize money for each league to tide us over. Edited April 9, 2020 by Shadwell Dog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: Don't think he's going to tell us Shadz. No still waiting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFC1878 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Again he says ' Right now, there's about £8m of TV money sitting in the SPFL bank account awaiting distribution, but it can only be released when final league places are known'. which is complete tosh. The premier have already paid out some cash without knowing final places. The epl and efl are handing out prize money again without knowing the final places. There is absolutely no reason why some or all of this money couldnt be handed out now and then decisions on promotion/relegation made at a later date. The EPL and EFL have probably got plenty cash reserves. The SPFL however don’t have a pot to piss in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Shadwell Dog said: Surely some form of league reconstruction is the fairest way. However, if the clubs vote yes now without any concrete proposal on the table you can bet it will never happen and the chance will have gone. You just shift the same arguments onto other clubs with reconstruction though. So we say we'll do away with relegation and promote two clubs to each division, going 14-10-10-10. That removes objections from Hearts, Partick & Stranraer, and means ICT, Falkirk and Edinburgh City go up along with the top placed clubs while Brora and Kelty get promotion without a playoff. All those clubs are now happy with it. However if it would be such an injustice for Raith to go up ahead of Falkirk without the remaining games being played that the current proposal can't possibly be acceptable, why would it be okay for Falkirk to go up ahead of Airdrie, Montrose and East Fife, or for ICT ahead of Dundee and Ayr, or for Kelty ahead of Bonnyrigg? Surely the exact same principle applies to all of those clubs? So you then look for a proposal that gets Dundee & Ayr promoted along with ICT and go for a 16 team top flight, but then Dunfermline and Arbroath can complain they had a entirely realistic chance of catching those two. Or you resolve the League One complaints by going 14-14-14 and promoting six which ensures everyone in the title race gets up, but then Clyde can argue they had a realistic chance of finishing sixth ahead of Dumbarton. You end up with some perceived injustice no matter what you do. If you try to reconstruct your way out of unfairness you'll end up with a 42-46 team league. There's no perfect solution. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJimmyofNic Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 I wonder how close Hertz n the Rangers are to going tits up again, they're bound to be needing the cash released like most other clubs , payout now on leagues as they are, and then sort out the leagues if and when this virus situation is gone, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, AFC1878 said: The EPL and EFL have probably got plenty cash reserves. The SPFL however don’t have a pot to piss in. And how does that effect this? The spfl, epl and efl all have a pot of prize money to hand out. Size of it doesnt matter here. Epl and efl and our own top flight have started handing this money out. Our spfl though are telling lower league clubs that only if they vote now to end the season can they get their prize money. No reason they cant give everyone the minimum prize money in each division to tide them over just now. They can then hand out the rest once a final decision is properly made. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 26 minutes ago, AFC1878 said: As far as I can see, the problem with null and void is that legally, the season up until now will not have existed, therefore the sponsors/broadcasters have paid for something that didn’t exist and will be entitled to reclaim their investment. This would result in no prize money being available which would lead to a financial crisis for some clubs, with some inevitably being lost. I'll be the first to admit I don't know the legal technicalities of the sponsorship agreement. And i'd be fairly confident that very few people do and potentially nobody on P&B. But logically, null and void doesn't necessarily mean than the season never happened. Fans won't be refunded fully for season tickets, players won't be asked to return their wages. People attended matches, watched matches on TV and sponsors benefitted from the advertising based on that. It could well be that sponsors will not be willing to pay for the 25% or so of the season that can't be played, but that is exactly the same situation we'd be in if we call the season now. it is perfectly possible to end the season now and say that that it's only promotions / relegations / championships / play offs that are null and voided. In regard to play offs and relegation from League Two, that is exactly what the SPFL are proposing right now. Can anyone give any logical argument or evidence why sponsors will go fucking mental if Cove Rangers don't replace Stranraer in L1 next season but they're entirely relaxed about no play-offs for any league? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said: You just shift the same arguments onto other clubs with reconstruction though. So we say we'll do away with relegation and promote two clubs to each division, going 14-10-10-10. That removes objections from Hearts, Partick & Stranraer, and means ICT, Falkirk and Edinburgh City go up along with the top placed clubs while Brora and Kelty get promotion without a playoff. All those clubs are now happy with it. However if it would be such an injustice for Raith to go up ahead of Falkirk without the remaining games being played that the current proposal can't possibly be acceptable, why would it be okay for Falkirk to go up ahead of Airdrie, Montrose and East Fife, or for ICT ahead of Dundee and Ayr, or for Kelty ahead of Bonnyrigg? Surely the exact same principle applies to all of those clubs? So you then look for a proposal that gets Dundee & Ayr promoted along with ICT and go for a 16 team top flight, but then Dunfermline and Arbroath can complain they had a entirely realistic chance of catching those two. Or you resolve the League One complaints by going 14-14-14 and promoting six which ensures everyone in the title race gets up, but then Clyde can argue they had a realistic chance of finishing sixth ahead of Dumbarton. You end up with some perceived injustice no matter what you do. If you try to reconstruct your way out of unfairness you'll end up with a 42-46 team league. There's no perfect solution. The only proposal that matters is one that is going to get enough votes to get passed at the end of the day. I'm not sure this one will in it's current format which will then leave some clubs on the brink with no extra cash. If it is a no then where do you go from here without league reconstruction being involved? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Serious question here, why are we happy to force through automatic promotion and relegation but void play-offs? Why shouldn't we promote Kelty, Edinburgh City, Falkirk, ICT and relegate Brechin,Forfar, QoS, Hamilton? If we're happy to say that it's unfair to discount 75% of the season and decide to award promotions and relegations based on what the most likely outcomes of finishing the season would be, why not do that for play-offs? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kebab Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Null and Void the Season and reconstruct the Lower Leagues to two Divisions of 15, play each other twice, home and away, that gives you 8 less League games so the pressure of starting Season 20-21 up in time can be shifted out to late September, early October and we can also get rid of the League Cup and Challenge Cup for a year, if a National “All-Clear” is given before then then the Cups can be easily reinstated to be played to a finish in those 8 free weeks!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJimmyofNic Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Null and voiding the season is rewarding teams for failure and penalising teams at the top 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.