The Economy Post Virus

[Detournement]

14 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Just as well SNP policy is a separate Scottish currency then 

Not from day one.

[invergowrie arab]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Not from day one.

Quite rightly.

[sjc]

The current Corporate "bailout" will make 2009's transfer of wealth look like a raid on a toddlers piggy bank and they'll use emergency powers currently being pushed through to suppress any protests.

Edited March 30, 2020 by sjc

[Detournement]

FT going all Corbyn

 

[Detournement]

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/06/17/the-governments-not-telling-the-truth-about-its-funding-right-now-when-the-simple-fact-is-that-qe-is-paying-for-everything/

Richard Murphy explaining that all the extra Covid spending is being funded by printing in the form of QE.

The Tories are proving that the Magic Money Tree is real. It's a shame Labour won't press them on this. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Detournement

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Are we borrowing from China?

Can we get Marcus Rashford to send them a letter? That worked better than years of Corbyn faffing about.

[Detournement]

20 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Are we borrowing from China?

 

Possibly not the thread for you. 

[Ross.]

29 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Are we borrowing from China?

It appears that the Bank of England is printing money to buy UK Government bonds. Essentially , the UK is borrowing money from itself.

[Detournement]

Here's what is happening

1. BoE creates £200 billion.

2. BoE use the £200 billion to buy back UK bonds that the Treasury have issued previously.

3. The institutions which receive the £200 billion use most of that money to buy the new bonds the Treasury is selling to finance Covid spending (obviously they get a slice as part of the scam). 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Detournement

[beefybake]

2 hours ago, Detournement said:

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/06/17/the-governments-not-telling-the-truth-about-its-funding-right-now-when-the-simple-fact-is-that-qe-is-paying-for-everything/

Richard Murphy explaining that all the extra Covid spending is being funded by printing in the form of QE.

The Tories are proving that the Magic Money Tree is real.    It's a shame Labour won't press them on this. 

Hardly.

To do so only gives a little bit of "... but, you said... " political satisfaction,

and then opens themselves up to a mountain of  "... you mean you don't want to save the economy, millions of jobs,

good busineses etc.., etc.. "

No sane politician would even think of going in the direction you suggest.

Well, not beyond the initial urge.

Edited June 17, 2020 by beefybake

[Detournement]

28 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Hardly.

To do so only gives a little bit of "... but, you said... " political satisfaction,

and then opens themselves up to a mountain of  "... you mean you don't want to save the economy, millions of jobs,

good busineses etc.., etc.. "

No sane politician would even think of going in the direction you suggest.

Well, not beyond the initial urge.

I don't mean that Labour should criticise this funding model.

They should be screaming from the rooftops about how this method of funding proves that austerity is completely unnecessary and pointing out that it can be used post-Covid to address problems like homelessness, education funding and social care.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Detournement

[beefybake]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

I don't mean that Labour should criticise this funding model.

They should be screaming from the rooftops about how this method of funding proves that austerity is completely unnecessary and pointing out that it can be used post-Covid to address problems like homelessness, education funding and social care.

For me, what the current situation illustrates is that the case for a Universal Basic Income is obvious.  

Every sane person can see that the Westminster government is useless and incompetent.

However, they have an electoral mandate for the next 4/5 years, and I hardly see a UBI being palatable to them.

Rather reminds me of 1992, when the Tory government was utterly useless, and obviously so. 

They did, though, stagger through to 1997 before they could be GTF'd.

The right time, now,  for Scotland to go it's own way. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by beefybake

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, beefybake said:

For me, what the current situation illustrates is that the case for a Universal Basic Income is obvious.  

Every sane person can see that the Westminster government is useless and incompetent.

However, they have an electoral mandate for the next 4/5 years, and I hardly see a UBI being palatable to them.

Rather reminds me of 1992, when the Tory government was utterly useless, and obviously so. 

They did, though, stagger through to 1997 before they could be GTF'd.

The right time, now,  really and obviously, for Scotland to go it's own way. 

A conditional basic income scheme based on a minimum amount of volunteer activity (general personal care tasks counting as well) would be both a more palatable option with the electorate and better for society IMO. There are tons of groups doing worthwhile improvements in their community that could do with more help to expand their capacity, whether it's building and maintaining community gardens to health and skills support. People will also benefit from having *something* genuinely worthwhile to do in place of all the pointless bullshit semi-jobs that are churned out in the economy.

What's clear enough though is that the old left's goal of giving people a strong safety net getting them back into good full-time work is never going to happen again. This virus and crash is going to put the ongoing trend towards automation on steroids and so many of the jobs lost now won't be coming back. 

 

 

[Father Ted]

For all the economic damage the virus has/may cause, I doubt it will be as damaging as WW2.

We spent out way out of that, investing in infrastructure, social housing and health. 

This is definitely the way to go, but you just know the Tories will fcuk it up. 

Further austerity would not be welcome or required. It failed before and will fail again.

I don't hold out much hope for the latest gang of incompetents we have in charge at Westminster doing the right thing, so independence will be coming soon, as a result.

[throbber]

46 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

For all the economic damage the virus has/may cause, I doubt it will be as damaging as WW2.

Well that’s fine then, panic over. 

[Father Ted]

1 hour ago, throbber said:

Well that’s fine then, panic over. 

Never panic, there is always a way.

Although I hold no faith in the current incumbents in government to do the right thing. 

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about the Tories.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Father Ted

[beefybake]

On 17/06/2020 at 20:15, virginton said:

A conditional basic income scheme based on a minimum amount of volunteer activity (general personal care tasks counting as well) would be both a more palatable option with the electorate and better for society IMO. There are tons of groups doing worthwhile improvements in their community that could do with more help to expand their capacity, whether it's building and maintaining community gardens to health and skills support. People will also benefit from having *something* genuinely worthwhile to do in place of all the pointless bullshit semi-jobs that are churned out in the economy.

What's clear enough though is that the old left's goal of giving people a strong safety net getting them back into good full-time work is never going to happen again. This virus and crash is going to put the ongoing trend towards automation on steroids and so many of the jobs lost now won't be coming back. 

 

 

As personal decisions made by people to do good in their community, I agree with you. 

 

However, I don't really look at Universal Basic Income as a 'benefit', with the associated viewpoint, for some,

that it's for 'benefit scroungers'. And therefore , they must, in exchange do good in their community to compensate 

for their 'scrounging'.

 

I look at UBI as part of New Economics.   These are designed to improve lives, and to address employment

changes brought about by, as you said,  for example, greater proliferation of robotics, artificial intelligence etc.

 

The new economics would involve, for example, doing away with state pensions, the personal tax-free allowance,

as neither would now be relevant.  A rate of 15% tax for lower paid people. The changes in the tax and financial

system would mean that 75% of people would be better off, in addition to having that UBI platform of basic income.

And the richer 25% would be, overall, slightly less well off.

 

[Detournement]

UBI can't just solve problems on it's own. If you started UBI now landlords would jack up rents and the end result would be increased inequality. Housing is obviously the area which is most open to exploitation but there would be other issues with inflation. UBI with the current economic structure means the same flows of money simply increased.

I disagree with viking ton about full employment. The state already funds millions of jobs that only exist to keep middle class lifestyles intact so any argument about pointless jobs is dead on arrival. The workforces in health, social care, education and council services could all be scaled up with working hours reduced across the board. The most important thing is to shift jobs/spending away from activities which manage and reproduce poverty to jobs that directly increase living standards.

The point of moving to a MMT funding model isn't so that we can all be ballers throwing cash about it's so the state can provide the services we all rely on without a large proportion of the population living a precarious and dehumanising lifestyle. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Detournement

[D.A.F.C]

750 billion bail out from the banks since before brexit started.

We are Donald ducked