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Scottydog

2019-20 how to conclude.

F*** Mr Cockwomble, we'll decide!  

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So Clyde will console themselves with still on paper being a third tier side but having swapped games against Raith, Falkirk, Airdrie, potentially Thistle for games against Elgin, Cowdenbeath etc with their 3 men and a dug supporters. Right you are then .

Your last point is also pish as you claim playing 4 times a season is turgid and want to replace it with leagues of 14 where we play (you guessed it) 4 times a season. Eureka!



If Clyde are anything other than a 3 men and a dug club, they’d stroll into tier 2 on a regular basis. Try looking beyond one season.

In a 14 team league you’d need a split so you’d play at a maximum six sides four times in a season. ‘Eureka’.

You could share a league with someone for three years and only have played them six times, which is how many times we’ve played Peterhead this season alone. Doesn’t that just sound much better?

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5 hours ago, stevoraith said:

I understand how it works, but exactly the same “we had a chance of finishing in that position” argument could be made for Euro places as for promotion/relegation so if you can award one on a partially completed season then your argument for not awarding the other kind of loses credibility.

No it doesn't.

Deciding not to promote / relegate / declare champions is a valid option for the leagues. If the SPFL were asked to nominate clubs for European football next season, nominating no clubs isn't really an option.

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19 hours ago, Scottydog said:

You say the decision doesn't have to be made right now and to an immediate extent you're correct, but it will still have to be made at some point. If these were normal times then right about now clubs would be in talks with their players and planning for next season, with that in mind a number of those same players are out of contract in June and would be talking to clubs. You have to think that even with no prospect of football anytime soon these guys will still be wanting to sort out their futures in the way of contracts for next season.... whenever that may be.

Regarding the logistical problems club viability is paramount of concern, so how do you conclude a season in a league where some of the participants have gone bust?  It is perhaps handy that there is exactly 9 games each left in L1 to play but what about the other leagues where teams have played a disproportionate amount of games? What a mess that would be to sort out. I know you suggested expunging results against of any clubs that had gone but is there a precedent for this, I could imagine this would be a highly debatable option and in the end no more useful than letting results stand.

Had this only been a short break of a few weeks or even as much as 6 weeks there probably would have been time enough that this season could have been played out, but Scottish football is as good as admitting that there will almost certainly be no football played until August and as such I cannot see that happening. If that's the case I can see no sense nor value in putting off making any decision. Given what we know about players contracts finishing in June (I believe after June Falkirk will have around 10 signed players, Raith 9, Montrose 7, Airdrie 6, East Fife 5) and the more pressing worry that by August there may well be clubs missing from the lists if that's the case I cannot see any way that season 2019/20 can be played to anything nearing a satisfactory finish.

If it passes that there are no more games played before June then one way or another it'd be better to make the hard choices and clear the boards to get things ready for the first whistle of the new season rather than have a pre-season, play the 9 games then muck about with the league and challenge cups and try to kick off a league season too.

 

19 hours ago, Scottydog said:

You say the decision doesn't have to be made right now and to an immediate extent you're correct, but it will still have to be made at some point. If these were normal times then right about now clubs would be in talks with their players and planning for next season, with that in mind a number of those same players are out of contract in June and would be talking to clubs. You have to think that even with no prospect of football anytime soon these guys will still be wanting to sort out their futures in the way of contracts for next season.... whenever that may be.

Regarding the logistical problems club viability is paramount of concern, so how do you conclude a season in a league where some of the participants have gone bust?  It is perhaps handy that there is exactly 9 games each left in L1 to play but what about the other leagues where teams have played a disproportionate amount of games? What a mess that would be to sort out. I know you suggested expunging results against of any clubs that had gone but is there a precedent for this, I could imagine this would be a highly debatable option and in the end no more useful than letting results stand.

Had this only been a short break of a few weeks or even as much as 6 weeks there probably would have been time enough that this season could have been played out, but Scottish football is as good as admitting that there will almost certainly be no football played until August and as such I cannot see that happening. If that's the case I can see no sense nor value in putting off making any decision. Given what we know about players contracts finishing in June (I believe after June Falkirk will have around 10 signed players, Raith 9, Montrose 7, Airdrie 6, East Fife 5) and the more pressing worry that by August there may well be clubs missing from the lists if that's the case I cannot see any way that season 2019/20 can be played to anything nearing a satisfactory finish.

If it passes that there are no more games played before June then one way or another it'd be better to make the hard choices and clear the boards to get things ready for the first whistle of the new season rather than have a pre-season, play the 9 games then muck about with the league and challenge cups and try to kick off a league season too.

 

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10 minutes ago, MOFOREVER said:

 

 

I take it from your reply you agree then?

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19 hours ago, Scottydog said:

You say the decision doesn't have to be made right now and to an immediate extent you're correct, but it will still have to be made at some point. If these were normal times then right about now clubs would be in talks with their players and planning for next season, with that in mind a number of those same players are out of contract in June and would be talking to clubs. You have to think that even with no prospect of football anytime soon these guys will still be wanting to sort out their futures in the way of contracts for next season.... whenever that may be.

Regarding the logistical problems club viability is paramount of concern, so how do you conclude a season in a league where some of the participants have gone bust?  It is perhaps handy that there is exactly 9 games each left in L1 to play but what about the other leagues where teams have played a disproportionate amount of games? What a mess that would be to sort out. I know you suggested expunging results against of any clubs that had gone but is there a precedent for this, I could imagine this would be a highly debatable option and in the end no more useful than letting results stand.

Had this only been a short break of a few weeks or even as much as 6 weeks there probably would have been time enough that this season could have been played out, but Scottish football is as good as admitting that there will almost certainly be no football played until August and as such I cannot see that happening. If that's the case I can see no sense nor value in putting off making any decision. Given what we know about players contracts finishing in June (I believe after June Falkirk will have around 10 signed players, Raith 9, Montrose 7, Airdrie 6, East Fife 5) and the more pressing worry that by August there may well be clubs missing from the lists if that's the case I cannot see any way that season 2019/20 can be played to anything nearing a satisfactory finish.

If it passes that there are no more games played before June then one way or another it'd be better to make the hard choices and clear the boards to get things ready for the first whistle of the new season rather than have a pre-season, play the 9 games then muck about with the league and challenge cups and try to kick off a league season too.

I agree with you mostly particulary about the viability of clubs. That's THE great concern but it is the same problem whether we complete the present season or start a new one. It's the length of the lockdown which is the problem. We also agree players contracts etc. are a problem but just about every player will be worried about his contract and will want to sort his contract out ASAP. BUT as you and I agree players won't be able to get a contract if his club or others go bust and that I think will encourage players to sign a sensible contract as soon as it's offered. In that case it doesn't matter how many players a club has already got tied up for next season, my guess is they will not have a problem signing them - the main problem/worry is will that club(s() survive. Even if null and void is declared we still have the viability problem as long as games are not played and if clubs go bust you can';t start a new season anyway until you know how many clubs are left. I think these worrying issues are the same whether or not you null and void or complete - it's the length of time without income which is the overall problem hence making a decision too early doesn't make sense and it could even accelerate the demise of a club.  Still think this is a great thread though as it gets a good variety of thoughts. 

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13 minutes ago, Scottydog said:

I take it from your reply you agree then?

Sorry Scotty, my computer flipped in mid entry and screen went blank. Had to re-start it and your/this response came in the meantime. As I say we agree most things, particularly the issues of viability and contracts but as long as the lockdown continues those will remain worrying issues whether or not we void.

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All depends on if we get the season restarting, if not I think it will be null and void as that will please more than if they handed out winners and losers to current positions.

Celtic, Dundee Utd, Raith, Cove will be pissed off if null & void if current positions were taken as final but you'd have a greater number of clubs pissed of with legal options available as they will have a case, whereas null & void has no legal case with the season incomplete.

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Given that next season might also need to be a short one, I would have thought a format with fewer games would be pretty acceptable. 

Could have a league cup up the sleeve in cas they're able to get started (and finished) earlier than expected.

Promoting teams for a season before correcting seems logical but I do take issue in a small way with the top two(s) going up. Second is a playoff spot as is fourth, so just promote positions 2-4? Otherwise I think 3rd and 4th DO have something to object to.

All of us sick of playing the same teams forever get a bit of a break from that. 

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55 minutes ago, MrDust said:

All depends on if we get the season restarting, if not I think it will be null and void as that will please more than if they handed out winners and losers to current positions.

Celtic, Dundee Utd, Raith, Cove will be pissed off if null & void if current positions were taken as final but you'd have a greater number of clubs pissed of with legal options available as they will have a case, whereas null & void has no legal case with the season incomplete.

Which clubs will be able to afford legal action after this? Can't imagine that's going to be a huge list. 

 

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If Clyde are anything other than a 3 men and a dug club, they’d stroll into tier 2 on a regular basis. Try looking beyond one season.

In a 14 team league you’d need a split so you’d play at a maximum six sides four times in a season. ‘Eureka’.

You could share a league with someone for three years and only have played them six times, which is how many times we’ve played Peterhead this season alone. Doesn’t that just sound much better?
Looking beyond one season is no better, we need to get promoted again to play the teams we currently share a league with.

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If Clyde are anything other than a 3 men and a dug club, they’d stroll into tier 2 on a regular basis. Try looking beyond one season.

 

In a 14 team league you’d need a split so you’d play at a maximum six sides four times in a season. ‘Eureka’.

 

You could share a league with someone for three years and only have played them six times, which is how many times we’ve played Peterhead this season alone. Doesn’t that just sound much better?

 

So you would play 24 out of 38 league games against the same 6 sides. It’s hardly the breath of fresh air you are selling it as.

 

Listen, I don’t think the 14-14-14 model is completely without merit but to go to such a drastic realignment I think you need to give clubs notice and a full season of matches to transition to that structure.

Who knew that the difference between 6th and 7th in League One would be so massive before a ball was kicked. Dumbarton get to join the second tier and play all the big clubs while its back to Elgin and Annan for us? Hardly fair to pull that out of the blue.

Also there is no place at the table for lowland/highland league winners.

 

What would be much fairer and more interesting is to promote 2 and relegate none for next season taking us to 14-10-10-10 and then looking at how we transition for the following again season to a 14-14-14 from there. That way everyone knows what’s at stake before the season starts.

 

ETA: from 14-10-10-10 we could also transition to a 12-12-20 which I think is quite a nice model too but without the headache of relegating clubs out of the league to reduce 44 clubs back down to 42.

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Rugby Union have decided to nil & void season 2019/20. No promotion, no relegation. 

At least this would cut out a lot of uncertainty & we'd know where we stand.

There's not going to be time to squeeze in the remainder of this season (which would've been the fairest option). 

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After much deliberation, f**k my idea of 14/14/14 and just nul and void the season so Falkirk and Raith have to take another seasons hit in "the seaside league"

 

 

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15 hours ago, Brian Carrigan said:

This seems pretty clear to me, no? If a team is position 1 at the conclusion of a season, they're declared Champions. If the season is concluded early, how is that different?

It's not clear at all. This season is clearly set out with the first fixture in August and the last fixture in May, we haven't reached the last fixture therefore the season is not complete and a champion can't be crowned. There's nothing there that mentions an incomplete season.

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2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

It's not clear at all. This season is clearly set out with the first fixture in August and the last fixture in May, we haven't reached the last fixture therefore the season is not complete and a champion can't be crowned. There's nothing there that mentions an incomplete season.

I don't really understand why the season being incomplete needs to be factored in. If the season is ended now, 19/20 can be considered concluded (concluded being the wording used in the document). If the SPFL decide the remainder of games need to be played, the season is not concluded.

Null and void is stupid, I really don't understand how anyone can think it isn't. Also, further to a reply to my earlier post, it would be a 14 team top tier with the rest of the leagues containing 10. That's my angry typing making itself known there.

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32 minutes ago, Brian Carrigan said:

Null and void is stupid, I really don't understand how anyone can think it isn't.

Unfortunately due to time constraints with playing out remaining fixtures & the fact this is going to be longer than anyone imagined, null & void will become the only option. 

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1 hour ago, Brian Carrigan said:

I don't really understand why the season being incomplete needs to be factored in. If the season is ended now, 19/20 can be considered concluded (concluded being the wording used in the document). If the SPFL decide the remainder of games need to be played, the season is not concluded.

I'd say the fact that we're arguing over the wording shows that the rule isn't "clear" in regards to our current situation. I also think the fact that all clubs seem locked in discussions about how to move forward suggests it isn't just as simple as declaring champions as is, or they'd have said that was the plan of action if games can't be completed.

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40 minutes ago, Life on Marrs? said:

Unfortunately due to time constraints with playing out remaining fixtures & the fact this is going to be longer than anyone imagined, null & void will become the only option. 

None of those reasons prevent calling the season either. 

It's between calling the season and null and void, and who knows which option they will go for. 

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If the season is null and void, what are the legalities around prize money?

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1 minute ago, renton said:

If the season is null and void, what are the legalities around prize money?

SPFL to change it all into pound coins and release them down the steps of Hampden like a huge game of scramble and the chairman of each club gets to keep as much as they can fit in their bunnet. I see no reason to involve the law.

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