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Granny Danger

Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

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3 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

You keep saying this as a certainty, as if a financial support package from government is definitely coming if we remain without crowds. This is not guaranteed and no one in a position to make such a guarantee has said so.

Every industry is going to want some support, in the next few months and beyond. The worrying thing is that club's seem to have thrown all eggs in to the basket of crowds being allowed back in time to save those that haven't gotten by on large donations.

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I wonder how the players really feel about playing in front of no fans? I’ve already read quotes from players in higher leagues saying they find it “boring” or hard to motivate themselves for games. Can’t imagine the prospect of a trip up to Inverness in the dead of winter with no fans appeals to most players, but they’re professionals and they’ll get on with it. 

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And of course they will be first and clubs won't opt not to open the gates if the green light comes and it's just season ticket holders.
The clubs will just have no desire for it to just be them though, they won't campaign under a 'season ticket holders only' proposal and they will push for a larger percentage straight away to make it more viable.
Take Cineworld's announcement today. Allowed to open, limited numbers and restrictions, but not viable with what they are getting in so shutting it down.
Cannot compare cineworld with the Scottish football. Apples and oranges.

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12 minutes ago, Rob1885 said:
49 minutes ago, Jamie_M said:
And of course they will be first and clubs won't opt not to open the gates if the green light comes and it's just season ticket holders.
The clubs will just have no desire for it to just be them though, they won't campaign under a 'season ticket holders only' proposal and they will push for a larger percentage straight away to make it more viable.
Take Cineworld's announcement today. Allowed to open, limited numbers and restrictions, but not viable with what they are getting in so shutting it down.

Cannot compare cineworld with the Scottish football. Apples and oranges.

How?

Most of those attending Cineworld right now will already be paid up ticket holders (Cineworld Unlimited subscribers) looking to get value out of their subscription.

Operation not viable with few PAYG customers and only selling a few extras like snacks to a percentage of the subscribers.

Lot of parallels there.

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5 hours ago, CALDERON said:

Would still be wrong in my opinion. If fans are allowed into games, the people who have already stumped up hundreds of pounds to attend matches for this season should be able to. 

 

Not disagreeing with you

You could also have the scenario where  if fans are allowed into games in reduced numbers that number may not be enough to satisfy all season ticket holders of many clubs

Anyway,pie in the sky at the moment

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26 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I wonder how the players really feel about playing in front of no fans? I’ve already read quotes from players in higher leagues saying they find it “boring” or hard to motivate themselves for games. Can’t imagine the prospect of a trip up to Inverness in the dead of winter with no fans appeals to most players, but they’re professionals and they’ll get on with it. 

Read an article the other day with some of the sports science data that shows the product is diminished without fans.

Players not running as far in a game without the spur of the fans to push them that bit extra.

Looks like a training game, played like a training game.

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10 hours ago, eez-eh said:

Whether you agree with what he’s said or not it’s Doncaster’s job to stand up for the clubs and ensure they have the best possible chance of survival. 

Does picking a public spat with the Scottish Government because you don't agree with its public health restrictions count as ensuring 'the best possible chance of survival' right now? I really don't think that that it does. What they are doing is choosing to burn their bridges with a government that could already do with trimming the list of sectors that merit what little further support is available from the public purse. If the current level of case numbers is sustained never mind continues to rise then there is both no chance of crowds being back at football any time soon nor a sympathetic ear in Edinburgh to the future mewlings of Doncaster and his obese Tory underling. 

If I were Morton's chief executive I would be absolutely furious at their gormless and particularly badly timed intervention. 

Quote

It’s no different to every other other industry that‘s questioned rules and inconsistencies that they feel could see their businesses go bust, and I’m pretty sure there wasn’t the same level of faux outrage in response to them.

You must have missed the buckets of shit routinely thrown over braying businessmen like Tim Martin - ie the c**t from Wetherspoons - for crying about restrictions on his trade and the injustice of it all. 

Quote

People just love to hold football to a much higher moral standard than everything else. That much was evidenced by the ridiculous “yellow card” nonsense the entire football sector got because of a few Aberdeen players, while countless other sectors - including rugby - barely got a mention for their breaches.

That's not even remotely relevant to the SPFL choosing to pick a public fight with the government in the middle of a pandemic, when even the egg-chasers have until now kept the bulk of their concerns behind closed doors. Because that's actually the best way of securing government sympathy for a future bailout or (much less likely) a reversal of policy in the middle of a second wave. 

Edited by vikingTON

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15 minutes ago, Jamie_M said:

Read an article the other day with some of the sports science data that shows the product is diminished without fans.

Players not running as far in a game without the spur of the fans to push them that bit extra.

Looks like a training game, played like a training game.

Exactly that. 

Hope I change my opinion when the season starts but right now I couldn’t care less about it. I’ve watched games from various leagues on the TV and they bore me. Maybe when it’s my own team I’ll feel differently but it’s the least excited ive been for a season 

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1 hour ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I wonder how the players really feel about playing in front of no fans? I’ve already read quotes from players in higher leagues saying they find it “boring” or hard to motivate themselves for games. Can’t imagine the prospect of a trip up to Inverness in the dead of winter with no fans appeals to most players, but they’re professionals and they’ll get on with it. 

I think it is different for players in the top leagues. Many games at Palmerston take place in virtual silence anyway, apart from the away fans. I don’t think there will be that much difference when we play teams that don’t bring many fans. Even for the others, it is mostly just a small number of away fans that have a carry on, so the difference won’t be huge. 

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17 minutes ago, Flash said:

I think it is different for players in the top leagues. Many games at Palmerston take place in virtual silence anyway, apart from the away fans. I don’t think there will be that much difference when we play teams that don’t bring many fans. Even for the others, it is mostly just a small number of away fans that have a carry on, so the difference won’t be huge. 

Think you are massively underselling the impact of even modest crowds.

While it may not be full blown mayhem for 90 minutes, the atmosphere added at key moments, the pressure put on decisions, it's all still pretty significant.

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17 minutes ago, Flash said:

I think it is different for players in the top leagues. Many games at Palmerston take place in virtual silence anyway, apart from the away fans. I don’t think there will be that much difference when we play teams that don’t bring many fans. Even for the others, it is mostly just a small number of away fans that have a carry on, so the difference won’t be huge. 

I was thinking this whilst watching the Brechin v Raith game yesterday.  Wasn’t a huge difference as most noise is usually players shouting “hey! heeeeeyyyyyyyy!!!” at one another as fans chat amongst themselves.  Even in the Championship you’d get a couple of songs from the away fans in the first 5 mins and then they’d shut up.

Only noticeable and spooky difference I’d say is when there’s a goal and no cheer from the stand.  It feels as if they’ve all been ruled off for being offside.

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9 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

I was thinking this whilst watching the Brechin v Raith game yesterday.  Wasn’t a huge difference as most noise is usually players shouting “hey! heeeeeyyyyyyyy!!!” at one another as fans chat amongst themselves.  Even in the Championship you’d get a couple of songs from the away fans in the first 5 mins and then they’d shut up.

Only noticeable and spooky difference I’d say is when there’s a goal and no cheer from the stand.  It feels as if they’ve all been ruled off for being offside.

Aye, fair point. Just like the crowd at a theatre adds nothing to encourage performers because they don't sing throughout and only react at key moments. 

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1 hour ago, Jamie_M said:

Think you are massively underselling the impact of even modest crowds.

While it may not be full blown mayhem for 90 minutes, the atmosphere added at key moments, the pressure put on decisions, it's all still pretty significant.

Not convinced. I’ve seen us playing well in games in front of next to nobody and very badly when we’ve had a decent support. I don’t think the gutless losers perform any better in front of bigger crowds. And I don’t think the good and well motivated ones perform any worse in front of next to nobody. I honestly don’t think our fans make a single jot of difference to results or performances. I could well be wrong and maybe it is different at other clubs at this level as well.

Anyway, even if I am wrong, I think there will only be a slight difference to players who go from playing in front of 1,200 to nil compared with those used to playing in front of 50,000. To use your theatre analogy, it would be like the difference between actors used to playing to full houses of about 2,000 and those used to playing to audiences of about 50.

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19 hours ago, virginton said:

Why would the government provide taxpayer's money to bail out a sector of the economy that is demonstrably up and running despite Covid restrictions?

A: It won't because every business that cannot in fact restart - think live music venues - will rightly scream blue murder about a bailout for a sector that has seen what was coming, guilt-tripped its customers into paying more money, handed out new contracts while punting its existing staff on furlough and now wants extra money because the garbage business model that the SPFL chose to run with isn't delivering enough revenue. That's nobody's fault but the clubs who signed up to this nonsense campaign.

You are absolutely deluded if you think that the SPFL is going to have its cake and eat it with the support of the SG. It is politically toxic. 

Good question, completely wrong answer...

Lower league football might, kinda, be 'up and running'... but it isn't sustainable without crowds, because, unlike at the higher levels, TV money won't fill that gap (and neither, as everybody acknowledges, will streaming).

As for 'deluded'... well, again, that's a bit rich when your solution is not to fkn play (and that somehow, by not playing, you then justify subsidy from SG). Just because you don't fancy a shit-show of a season, with restricted or no crowds, postponements, everything has to shut down? It's beyond delusional to think that not playing is better than playing.

19 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It's extremely difficult, which is why it won't happen that way.  

I didn't mean that to sound aggressive, btw... it's clearly a complicated situation, but it still boils down to pretty straightforward fundamentals: the money to sustain clubs through this season will have to come from one of two sources... that really isn't difficult.

6 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

You keep saying this as a certainty, as if a financial support package from government is definitely coming if we remain without crowds. This is not guaranteed and no one in a position to make such a guarantee has said so.

I'm not saying either it's a 'certainty' that the SG will cough up, or that it's a 'certainty' that crowds will be allowed back; I'm saying that it's a certainty, if lower-league football is to survive, that one of those two things has to happen.

It's the SG that decide whether or at what level there will be crowds: they're perfectly entitled to set that at zero, on grounds of public health (whether they should or not is a different argument); but if they do, they should compensate on a match-by-match basis, proportionately, all the way down the levels.

That is the solution... and it's a solution that really won't cost very much.

Edited by The Ghost of B A R P

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2 hours ago, Jamie_M said:

How?

Most of those attending Cineworld right now will already be paid up ticket holders (Cineworld Unlimited subscribers) looking to get value out of their subscription.

Operation not viable with few PAYG customers and only selling a few extras like snacks to a percentage of the subscribers.

Lot of parallels there.

Isn't Cineworld Unlimited still a monthly subscription that can be cancelled?

Also, nobody gives a f**k if Cineworld goes under.

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That solution is not going to happen because Scottish football is not uniquely impacted by the pandemic and therefore a special case for government support. The SG is not going to compensate a business that is still taking money from its customer base every week, in the same way that restaurants and pubs aren't getting a subsidy for the tables and capacity that they have lost through distancing/time restrictions on their trade. If you choose to operate then you accept the costs.

Lower league Scottish football must either face economic reality and go into hiatus alongside the live music and countless other sectors or dig an even deeper hole for itself with no credible prospect of a government subsidy or a return to business as usual. These being by far the two most likely scenarios on the table, binning the league indefinitely right now is the most sensible decision.

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1 minute ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Isn't Cineworld Unlimited still a monthly subscription that can be cancelled?

Also, nobody gives a f**k if Cineworld goes under.

Cineworld employed 5,500 people in the UK before lockdown, which is probably more than every SPFL club put together.

But yes the government is definitely going to rush to save the latter on the grounds of what people on an online football forum think rather than the opinion of the electorate as a whole. That Scottish football clubs are in fact dispensable in the event of the huge economic crunch to come never crosses the mind of the dimwits in charge of the SPFL, who are now leading their member clubs off a cliff edge.

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45 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Isn't Cineworld Unlimited still a monthly subscription that can be cancelled?

Also, nobody gives a f**k if Cineworld goes under.

Nope, it's a ccommitment for the year whether you pay monthly or up front.

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1 minute ago, Jamie_M said:

Nope, it's a ccommitment for the year whether you pay monthly or up front.

So there are people who've been paying...whatever it is now, think it was a tenner a month last time when I was signed up...all through the lockdown despite the fact that the company's unable to provide the service? Wow.

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1 hour ago, Flash said:

Not convinced. I’ve seen us playing well in games in front of next to nobody and very badly when we’ve had a decent support. I don’t think the gutless losers perform any better in front of bigger crowds. And I don’t think the good and well motivated ones perform any worse in front of next to nobody. I honestly don’t think our fans make a single jot of difference to results or performances. I could well be wrong and maybe it is different at other clubs at this level as well.

Anyway, even if I am wrong, I think there will only be a slight difference to players who go from playing in front of 1,200 to nil compared with those used to playing in front of 50,000. To use your theatre analogy, it would be like the difference between actors used to playing to full houses of about 2,000 and those used to playing to audiences of about 50.

There's no point of reference to compare at our level yet. We will see how commitment levels are and the tempo of games when they are playing repeatedly in front of nobody.

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