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Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship


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5 hours ago, craigkillie said:

As it stands right now it would still cost clubs thousands of pounds a week to start training. That will be the case until at least mid July, possibly longer. So it's no surprise that when the clubs were given the choice of getting players back in to train and having to fork out their wages and those testing costs to potentially play to no or reduced crowds, or keeping them on furlough with no testing costs and starting the season when they might have full crowds in, they overwhelmingly voted for the latter.

Are people just not comprehending that there is absolutely no scenario in which starting earlier will raise enough income to outweigh the loss of furlough subsidy? Never mind the fact you still need to test players and staff at a significant cost to start training. 

Could we potentially now start a week or two earlier? Possibly but even then its likely the sanitisation and disinfection costs of having any sort of crowd in earlier are going to be worse than the benefits. There has been no discussion yet on when crowds may be allowed at pro sport nor what size limits may be.

I just dont see any likelihood of the Oct start changing now. Interesting to see if League 1 and 2, who have different employment characteristics, follow suit or try to go for a full season. 

Edited to add - starting a week or two earlier would achieve nothing anyway. We arent going to play a 29 or 30 game season. If you cant play 36 there is no point scheduling any more than 27.

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Are people just not comprehending that there is absolutely no scenario in which starting earlier will raise enough income to outweigh the loss of furlough subsidy? Never mind the fact you still need to test players and staff at a significant cost to start training. 

Could we potentially now start a week or two earlier? Possibly but even then its likely the sanitisation and disinfection costs of having any sort of crowd in earlier are going to be worse than the benefits. There has been no discussion yet on when crowds may be allowed at pro sport nor what size limits may be.

I just dont see any likelihood of the Oct start changing now. Interesting to see if League 1 and 2, who have different employment characteristics, follow suit or try to go for a full season. 

Edited to add - starting a week or two earlier would achieve nothing anyway. We arent going to play a 29 or 30 game season. If you cant play 36 there is no point scheduling any more than 27.

It's time you and @DA Baracusunderstood @Thereisalight..has nothing to do on a Saturday. If people can protest and go to the beach...

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I know France was being cited as an example that Hearts and Partick will be successful as the Courts intervened. Appreciate its different circumstances as their league format was expiring for season end. However, the relegations have now been confirmed.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-court-battle-france-u-turn-means-clubs-are-relegated-after-all-2897000?amp

animated sound effect GIF

 

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10 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Are people just not comprehending that there is absolutely no scenario in which starting earlier will raise enough income to outweigh the loss of furlough subsidy? Never mind the fact you still need to test players and staff at a significant cost to start training. 

Could we potentially now start a week or two earlier? Possibly but even then its likely the sanitisation and disinfection costs of having any sort of crowd in earlier are going to be worse than the benefits. There has been no discussion yet on when crowds may be allowed at pro sport nor what size limits may be.

Three points here really:

1) If playing games in September is the only way to fit the Betfred Cup into the schedule - with the TV games, sponsorship and prize money in tow - then not only would it be possible to start earlier without losing money but clubs would avoid an overall loss from truncating or binning that competition for the season. There's also no reason to suspect that Scotland won't be on phase 4 reopening at the current rate of progress as well, which would at least some level of crowd into matches (the July Betfred games were hardly heaving with fans anyway). This would actually be a better use of the available calendar while also giving clubs some actual competitive preparation before the league begins. 

2) Why would players and staff require testing to play matches in the autumn? This is no longer a situation where football is starting behind closed doors while much of the economy is still shut down: by August the entire hospitality industry, non-essential shops, schools etc. are expected to be free to open and none of those workers require any testing at all before going back to their jobs. Clubs or the SPFL may wish to have an optional test facility available to them but the idea that they will have to do so is a red herring. Things have progressed far beyond that scenario.

3) Ditto 'sanitisation and disinfection costs', which does not require anything more than it takes for a hotel to open safely from July 15. That certain clubs' facilities (most of all Morton) will be dragged into the current century and more regular but basic cleaning will have to be undertaken are not significant barriers at all.

Edited by vikingTON
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2 hours ago, virginton said:

Three points here really:

1) If playing games in September is the only way to fit the Betfred Cup into the schedule - with the TV games, sponsorship and prize money in tow - then not only would it be possible to start earlier without losing money but clubs would avoid an overall loss from truncating or binning that competition for the season. There's also no reason to suspect that Scotland won't be on phase 4 reopening at the current rate of progress as well, which would at least some level of crowd into matches (the July Betfred games were hardly heaving with fans anyway). This would actually be a better use of the available calendar while also giving clubs some actual competitive preparation before the league begins. 

2) Why would players and staff require testing to play matches in the autumn? This is no longer a situation where football is starting behind closed doors while much of the economy is still shut down: by August the entire hospitality industry, non-essential shops, schools etc. are expected to be free to open and none of those workers require any testing at all before going back to their jobs. Clubs or the SPFL may wish to have an optional test facility available to them but the idea that they will have to do so is a red herring. Things have progressed far beyond that scenario.

3) Ditto 'sanitisation and disinfection costs', which does not require anything more than it takes for a hotel to open safely from July 15. That certain clubs' facilities (most of all Morton) will be dragged into the current century and more regular but basic cleaning will have to be undertaken are not significant barriers at all.

The Betfred Cup is already in the schedule starting in October. There is utterly no benefit on incurring increased costs to play it earlier.

Players and staff need tested to train and play NOW. There are no current suggestions that will imminently change though it may well do. If you want to start in August then you need to be back training about now, as the Premiership sides already are. Regardless of whatever point the authorities stop insisting on that, every penny spent on it between now and then is money chucked away. You are not last I looked in charge of the Scottish Govt. Nothing in their published phased release confirmed potential crowd attendances any time soon or a change in the guidance required for professional sport to take place. It may well come soon but its not here yet and planning on an assumption is risky and foolish against an obviously lower risk alternative.

The comparative costs on opening a football stadium compared to a hotel are both unknown at this stage and utterly irrelvant to one another. You're not wrong about basic cleaning at a lot of stadiums, Palmerston included, of course but like it or not thats a significant extra cost and thats a factor. And certainly at Palmerston a lot of the basic manpower cleaning is done by the Reserve / apprentice squad, which we dont have right now and there is no confirmation of when it might come back. That means presumably paying outside contractors to do it. All costs that either wont apply or will apply less starting in October.

I appreciate fans want football back asap but there is no financial argument for it at our level (potentially there is for Hearts and maybe Dundee). 

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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The Betfred Cup is already in the schedule starting in October. There is utterly no benefit on incurring increased costs to play it earlier.
Players and staff need tested to train and play NOW. There are no current suggestions that will imminently change though it may well do. If you want to start in August then you need to be back training about now, as the Premiership sides already are. Regardless of whatever point the authorities stop insisting on that, every penny spent on it between now and then is money chucked away. You are not last I looked in charge of the Scottish Govt. Nothing in their published phased release confirmed potential crowd attendances any time soon or a change in the guidance required for professional sport to take place. It may well come soon but its not here yet and planning on an assumption is risky and foolish against an obviously lower risk alternative.
The comparative costs on opening a football stadium compared to a hotel are both unknown at this stage and utterly irrelvant to one another. You're not wrong about basic cleaning at a lot of stadiums, Palmerston included, of course but like it or not thats a significant extra cost and thats a factor. And certainly at Palmerston a lot of the basic manpower cleaning is done by the Reserve / apprentice squad, which we dont have right now and there is no confirmation of when it might come back. That means presumably paying outside contractors to do it. All costs that either wont apply or will apply less starting in October.
I appreciate fans want football back asap but there is no financial argument for it at our level (potentially there is for Hearts and maybe Dundee). 
Just cause yous have got 3 players.
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A - It is pretty well accepted that roughly two months is necessary to prepare for play This includes time to sign players, ramp up fitness activities, practice, possibly sell tickets, allow any potential attendees for the early games advance knowledge, etc. That takes us to approximately September 1, at earliest. This timeline also roughly matches what the Premiership has been doing, as they have been conducting basic activities around the new season for almost a month now.

B - Even Boris is taking cheap (and correct) jabs at the U.S. response and opening process as a complete clusterfuck. This knowledge colors actions and will, luckily for you, make the resumption of normal activities a bit more cautious.

C - Positive tests and case numbers are a two week lagging indicator. With pubs and cinemas, key situations with regard to football, set to reopen as soon at July 4, the results will be seen in testing and hospitalizations by about July 18. If there is not an undue spike, I would say that the return of football with some crowds would be more likely some time after that...again, add two months, and we get September 18.

D - The Premiership will start about the time the the lower leagues begin activities, allowing the lower leagues to profit from the Premiership experience, hopefully significantly reducing the unknowns for clubs with fewer resources. This will also serve as the test tube for lower league crowd sizes and protocols.

E - We all know that Governmental assistance will end at the end of October. We also know that players will have to be off furlough before they start playing, so choosing the longest possible use of the assistance program (to keep club costs down) AND letting the clubs thus determine the ideal time to recall players to prepare for the season is prudent and smart.

F - Everything being done points to early October being a sweet spot for a restart, likely minimizing club costs...but there is no advantage to starting before late October because they want a multiple of nine games available for the season, voila, October 27.

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1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

The Betfred Cup is already in the schedule starting in October. There is utterly no benefit on incurring increased costs to play it earlier.

Players and staff need tested to train and play NOW. There are no current suggestions that will imminently change though it may well do. If you want to start in August then you need to be back training about now, as the Premiership sides already are. Regardless of whatever point the authorities stop insisting on that, every penny spent on it between now and then is money chucked away. You are not last I looked in charge of the Scottish Govt. Nothing in their published phased release confirmed potential crowd attendances any time soon or a change in the guidance required for professional sport to take place. It may well come soon but its not here yet and planning on an assumption is risky and foolish against an obviously lower risk alternative.

The comparative costs on opening a football stadium compared to a hotel are both unknown at this stage and utterly irrelvant to one another. You're not wrong about basic cleaning at a lot of stadiums, Palmerston included, of course but like it or not thats a significant extra cost and thats a factor. And certainly at Palmerston a lot of the basic manpower cleaning is done by the Reserve / apprentice squad, which we dont have right now and there is no confirmation of when it might come back. That means presumably paying outside contractors to do it. All costs that either wont apply or will apply less starting in October.

I appreciate fans want football back asap but there is no financial argument for it at our level (potentially there is for Hearts and maybe Dundee). 

I didn't say 'start playing in August' so a large chunk of that is raised against a straw man argument. We are well on track for having phase 4 being implemented before September: if that allows us to move a few games forward instead to take advantage of that development then we should. 

A professional football club should be more than capable of hiring either outside contractors or, at a push, competent volunteers to do cleaning tasks in light of a pandemic risk. The idea of getting the reserves to do it is trapped in the 1970s nonsense that shouldn't be in place regardless of whether the restart is in October or not.

As above, I suspect that the real bone of contention here is that certain clubs have chosen to empty their squads on footballing grounds, which isn't actually a good  argument for everyone else to just sit on their hands until they feel like adding to the payroll again in October. 

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47 minutes ago, virginton said:

Championship squads do not get even remotely 'two months to prepare' before the Betfred Cup typically starts in mid-July, this is just utter nonsense being peddled now.

Really. Let’s go over it:

...schedule is known and personnel start making preparations more than two months in advance. Just because the new season starts in June, the staff are working on matters relating to the Cup before that. If they weren’t, then the Cup schedule wouldn’t be published well in advance.

...players are already in fitness activities running up to June and then starting in July. Something they won’t have the advantage of this time, as they’ve stopped organized fitness activities for months now.

...players are generally signed a month or more before the Cup starts.

 

Do not conflate “two months to prepare” with two months of player activists. There is a whole load of activities that mush go on before the players even start prepping for games.

Now, as a bonus, several sports teams facilities here in the U.S. have had to be shutdown for virus outbreaks. Hopefully, for football, that’s more a factor of our poor control of the spread rather than a preview of what might happen as teams ramp back up. The rollout of Aussie footie might help clarify this.

Edited by TxRover
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Players really are not 'signed a month before the Cup starts' in any normal season at this level. Most clubs go into the Betfred Cup still putting together a basic first team never mind completing their squad. The same 'fitness activities' that players continue in the off-season also haven't been ditched since March: clubs have given their players more or less detailed fitness plans to follow while on furlough. They do not need two months' advance notice to resume playing again and teams have never been close to 100% match fit by the time that the cup usually starts. Can we crunch all this precious 'preparation time' down to one month in the context of an unprecedented virus trashing the schedule? Absolutely.

I really couldn't care less about yet another pointless example from the US to back up your argument champ. Scotland is not Texas and Scottish football has got absolutely nothing to do with your shan American sports. Thanks for playing anyway.

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3 hours ago, virginton said:

Players really are not 'signed a month before the Cup starts' in any normal season at this level. Most clubs go into the Betfred Cup still putting together a basic first team never mind completing their squad. The same 'fitness activities' that players continue in the off-season also haven't been ditched since March: clubs have given their players more or less detailed fitness plans to follow while on furlough. They do not need two months' advance notice to resume playing again and teams have never been close to 100% match fit by the time that the cup usually starts. Can we crunch all this precious 'preparation time' down to one month in the context of an unprecedented virus trashing the schedule? Absolutely.

I really couldn't care less about yet another pointless example from the US to back up your argument champ. Scotland is not Texas and Scottish football has got absolutely nothing to do with your shan American sports. Thanks for playing anyway.

4B61F62E-7626-4D2E-BE62-3A31CBEC845E.jpeg.fd790b659afe480e96a340c33160a944.jpeg

Since reading for comprehension seems difficult for you, I’ll try to make it simpler.

You cannot “start” a football season with less than a couple of months notice. It is not a matter of players needing all that time, but rather the clubs needing the time to organize the games and prepare the stadia.

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5 hours ago, TxRover said:

A - It is pretty well accepted that roughly two months is necessary to prepare for play This includes time to sign players, ramp up fitness activities, practice, possibly sell tickets, allow any potential attendees for the early games advance knowledge, etc. That takes us to approximately September 1, at earliest. This timeline also roughly matches what the Premiership has been doing, as they have been conducting basic activities around the new season for almost a month now.

B - Even Boris is taking cheap (and correct) jabs at the U.S. response and opening process as a complete clusterfuck. This knowledge colors actions and will, luckily for you, make the resumption of normal activities a bit more cautious.

C - Positive tests and case numbers are a two week lagging indicator. With pubs and cinemas, key situations with regard to football, set to reopen as soon at July 4, the results will be seen in testing and hospitalizations by about July 18. If there is not an undue spike, I would say that the return of football with some crowds would be more likely some time after that...again, add two months, and we get September 18.

D - The Premiership will start about the time the the lower leagues begin activities, allowing the lower leagues to profit from the Premiership experience, hopefully significantly reducing the unknowns for clubs with fewer resources. This will also serve as the test tube for lower league crowd sizes and protocols.

E - We all know that Governmental assistance will end at the end of October. We also know that players will have to be off furlough before they start playing, so choosing the longest possible use of the assistance program (to keep club costs down) AND letting the clubs thus determine the ideal time to recall players to prepare for the season is prudent and smart.

F - Everything being done points to early October being a sweet spot for a restart, likely minimizing club costs...but there is no advantage to starting before late October because they want a multiple of nine games available for the season, voila, October 27.

In a nutshell we're talking about MONEY and only money, the timeframes from a public health perspective don't even come into it and anyone who thinks they do is rather naive to say the least.

The bottom line is that the virus is almost dead within Scotland currently, yet we're looking at another 4 months before restarting football.

As for the furlough scheme, WHY should it continue until October when the risk has now been reduced / nullified to levels which can no longer justify businesses remaining closed, should this not now be revisited ??

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31 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Since reading for comprehension seems difficult for you, I’ll try to make it simpler.

You cannot “start” a football season with less than a couple of months notice. It is not a matter of players needing all that time, but rather the clubs needing the time to organize the games and prepare the stadia.

What exactly do you think is involved in organising Championship matches or preparing stadiums like Cappielow or Palmerston? Football matches get organised at short notice all the time and nobody seems to mind.

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1 minute ago, WATTOO said:

In a nutshell we're talking about MONEY and only money, the timeframes from a public health perspective don't even come into it and anyone who thinks they do is rather naive to say the least.

The bottom line is that the virus is almost dead within Scotland currently, yet we're looking at another 4 months before restarting football.

As for the furlough scheme, WHY should it continue until October when the risk has now been reduced / nullified to levels which can no longer justify businesses remaining closed, should this not now be revisited ??

Not quite. The reality is reopening is best done in a slow and steady manner, carefully observing if any adverse trends are found in each stage. Given a two week delay in the ability to see impacts from actions, it is prudent to not rush, as other locations have shown.

OK, so then let’s talk money. We know that most clubs in Scotland lost around 25% of their income from last season, while experiencing costs beyond the shutdown. That means all the clubs have lost money versus budget, and some will have posted a larger loss than anticipated. With next year’s campaign truncated, the clubs also have to take steps to reduce expenses in line with the reduced income. It is reasonable to recognize that the clubs are doing the prudent thing here, especially as while they could perhaps start operating now, it would be with increased costs and literally no revenue.

If the Government says you can have full crowds at games, the SPFL would possibly open up on time, but with limits still imposed, it makes sense to use the available furlough scheme to the best advantage. It would be crassly unfair for the scheme to be terminated while still prohibiting a business from earning any profits.

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9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

What exactly do you think is involved in organising Championship matches or preparing stadiums like Cappielow or Palmerston? Football matches get organised at short notice all the time and nobody seems to mind.

OK, you have to arrange a game at Palmerston against Raith.

1) The facility has to be prepared, and that’s not a simple process, especially after a layoff like this. The whole facility has to be reviewed for Health and Safety compliance, ensuring that all equipment either works or is posted as required. The seats will all generally need checked, adjusted/fixed and cleaned. The services need attention. Most teams at this level have had one or two people working at the stadium, trying to keep things working and keeping things in usable nick. Most teams also have a team of volunteers who will assist in preparing the facility...How quickly can you organize this? How many of the usual volunteers will be unwilling to assist because of their health or concerns? How quickly can the pitch be properly prepared for play from hibernation?

2) QoS has to organize their team, organize the support staff, order and acquire kits and other supplies, arrange any necessary accommodations for players and staff who may not reside in the area, and a multitude of other mundane tasks.

3) Raith has to arrange similar things.

 

You mentions spur of the moment games, but those occur during an active season, where the majority of the above items are addressed by default. It literally comes down to arranging travel and ordering in some supplies. With the shutdown, few, if any teams, will have contracts in place for all supplies, as those are often negotiated on a year-by-year basis to ensure competitive pricing. If you have any experience with business contracts, you know that isn’t an overnight process.

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Nobody is arguing that work doesn't need to be done, but it's this weird obsession you have with it needing 2 months to prepare that I have a problem with. All of the above could be sorted in a month or less if need be, and that's even making the assumption that Queen of the South and Raith have spent the last four months labouring under the idea that they'll never ever play a football match again and therefore haven't made a single contingency plan for anything.

The reason clubs won't be playing sooner is because they have staff on furlough and it would cost them money to play behind closed doors, not because it is literally impossible to organise these games.

Edited by craigkillie
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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Nobody is arguing that work doesn't need to be done, but it's this weird obsession you have with it needing 2 months to prepare that I have a problem with. All of the above could be sorted in a month or less if need be, and that's even making the assumption that Queen of the South and Raith have spent the last four months labouring under the assumption that they'll never ever play a football match again and therefore haven't made a single contingency plan for anything.

The reason clubs won't be playing sooner is because they have staff on furlough and it would cost them money to play behind closed doors, not because it is literally impossible to organise these games.

Agreed, money is a huge portion of it. However, how quickly can the Championship teams sign a team? How quickly can you perform all those tasks, especially as several take other actions to be done first. I’ll cut it to one month, happy? So, if pubs can open on July 4th, football teams should be able to begin preparations for a season about the same time.. You now have to possibly sign your staff, sign a team, equip a team and train a team, and you still think a month is reasonable? The facility might be ready, but the team won’t be...so there your club sits, burning cash with no incoming funds.

So we have the teams spinning up and possibly able to play by around August 4th or so...for what, playing behind closed doors, which has already been declared catastrophic by the Championship teams. Now, let’s look at your average summer...games in earnest begin about two months after the “season” really starts with mid to late June signings (funny how two months comes up, eh?) and players returning from their June break. Note that the club didn’t take a June break, so that’s about a month of preparation time they get before the players even play into it. So we want to rush teams to play quickly, and in a state that assures little to no income, why? Instead we have a clearly planned return for 75% of the games of a full season, giving the clubs the clear planning data they need.

We’re both agreeing on the fact that games are not going to happen earlier because of money as a major point...however, I’m suggesting that there is also the aspect of housekeeping that would normally already have been done hasn’t even been started yet, and will also take time.

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Nobody is arguing that work doesn't need to be done, but it's this weird obsession you have with it needing 2 months to prepare that I have a problem with. All of the above could be sorted in a month or less if need be, and that's even making the assumption that Queen of the South and Raith have spent the last four months labouring under the assumption that they'll never ever play a football match again and therefore haven't made a single contingency plan for anything.

The reason clubs won't be playing sooner is because they have staff on furlough and it would cost them money to play behind closed doors, not because it is literally impossible to organise these games.

Yeah this roughly. Organising the club and games isnt going to take 2 months though there will be more challenges than usual. Its all about furlough really. And the fact that starting a week or two earlier, should that prove feasible, will achieve little. As I have said before, if you cant play 36 games you arent going to try to arrange more than 27 or you have an imbalanced fixture list.

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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