Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, I listened to it yesterday and as I said in the first post there's an expectation 2m will reduce as it is (I think) the highest in Europe. I agree 20% is probably more likely by the time crowds are allowed. The point was to give people some idea of what was really meant by a 2m distance. I really don't think a lot of people were appreciating how many seats that would render unusable.

Did the actual maths using New Bayview as an example (easy to figure with one stand and a repetitive design)  in the Seaside forum, and came up with around 17% capacity. That was based upon two seats between groups of two people on each row and only using  every third row. That’s not 2m, but it is pretty fair distancing. However, as you note, the congested ingress/egress areas will be a huge issue. Using the biggest park in the area might help a wee bit, but very few stadia with enough controlled entrances exist to make this an easy go.

With the distancing comes the need to control when people leave their seats, which seems to suggest kids, and those who tend to over prepare, would be much less likely to attend, as we all know they have more difficulty waiting to go. We’ve all also seen what happens when an airplane lands, as everyone crowds for the exit, so getting out would have to be carefully staged, once again detracting from the experience.

Also, hospitality would be severely constrained, so you have to wonder if it’s even worth opening the stands at some point. Certainly clubs might actually lose money having fans under serious distancing requirements, as they won’t be able to seat enough people to cover the costs of staff and the policing of the crowds. I also doubt that food and drink sales will exist, another hit to the bottom line.

Since Palmerston can seat what, 3,300, and normally sees about 1,800 seated and standing, the actual attendance capacity seated would be about 561 (unless they can add in some standing capacity with distancing, but standing distancing capacity would likely be much less than 17% capacity...perhaps they can get 5-10%, so another 250-500), Can QoS make enough money opening Palmerston for 700-900 people to pay for all the associated costs if all they get the ticket money. Assuming an average ticket of about £15 (more full pay adults during crisis), that £10,500-13,500 from the tickets to pay weekly (two weeks worth) salaries, website costs, ticketing costs, stewards and security (higher than normal), grounds cleaning and preparation, probably additional portable toilets and cleaning stations, etc (if standing is out, the income would be around £8,415).

Does anyone know how much of the average team’s game day revenue comes from food/drink, hospitality, merchandise, etc?

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Aye, most refs are aerosols.

Eta more seriously, the numbers might be increased (ie keeping a 2m or less gap) if fans have to wear face coverings plus groups from the same household could sit together. But how do you cater for that if you have to mark out the terracing - have different sized circles? Will adults from the same household need id to prove their address? I think it is unlikely that crowds will be allowed until the 2m thing has gone. Even if it is 1m, how do you prevent people from moving?

Since movie theatres have been using online ticketing for a while, there is likely some software that could be pretty easily adapted to address the seating issues and automatically space by some rule, but it has limitations:

1) All buy online before the match, no day of the game or at the gate tickets. Then, how to check tickets on the way in without getting people close?

2) Spacing requirement would have to be coded, so that as people buy tickets, the areas that they can be seated are shown to them, but people would also be limited as to where they could buy so as not to unduly restrain space. That is, is you want seats for five together, there would be fewer places to put you so as not to block off huge areas. It’s likely they would generally fill from one side across.

3) There would have to be an assumption of responsibility by the purchaser to ensure that the group seated together meets the standards to be allowed to be seated together. At some point you have to trust people...even when they often aren’t trustworthy. There would, naturally, be an exception in that they would not trust any Government official.

4) The only way to prevent movement is no leaving your seat except for physiological needs, and that would have to be carefully choreographed. To do that, you need more stewards...and to do that, you need some free space for them AND testing for them.

5] How do you stage arrivals/departures AND keep those areas clean? How often do you clean the facilities?

[Guest Flash]

11 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Since movie theatres have been using online ticketing for a while, there is likely some software that could be pretty easily adapted to address the seating issues and automatically space by some rule, but it has limitations:

1) All buy online before the match, no day of the game or at the gate tickets. Then, how to check tickets on the way in without getting people close?

2) Spacing requirement would have to be coded, so that as people buy tickets, the areas that they can be seated are shown to them, but people would also be limited as to where they could buy so as not to unduly restrain space. That is, is you want seats for five together, there would be fewer places to put you so as not to block off huge areas. It’s likely they would generally fill from one side across.

3) There would have to be an assumption of responsibility by the purchaser to ensure that the group seated together meets the standards to be allowed to be seated together. At some point you have to trust people...even when they often aren’t trustworthy. There would, naturally, be an exception in that they would not trust any Government official.

4) The only way to prevent movement is no leaving your seat except for physiological needs, and that would have to be carefully choreographed. To do that, you need more stewards...and to do that, you need some free space for them AND testing for them.

5] How do you stage arrivals/departures AND keep those areas clean? How often do you clean the facilities?

It all falls into the category of more trouble than it is worth. Either wait until there are no social distancing rules, or don’t bother, imo.

[Bairnardo]

Are folk forgetting the fifteen minute thing? Turnstile guy with perspex screen and mask sees each person for about 7 seconds.

[SUPERSOUTH]

5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

By the time FANS are allowed in stadiums there is a strong possibility the 2m social guidance will be down to 1m...

[Skyline Drifter]

5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

 

12 minutes ago, SUPERSOUTH said:

By the time FANS are allowed in stadiums there is a strong possibility the 2m social guidance will be down to 1m...

It literally already says that in the post you quoted.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

Since Palmerston can seat what, 3,300, and normally sees about 1,800 seated and standing, the actual attendance capacity seated would be about 561 (unless they can add in some standing capacity with distancing, but standing distancing capacity would likely be much less than 17% capacity...perhaps they can get 5-10%, so another 250-500), Can QoS make enough money opening Palmerston for 700-900 people to pay for all the associated costs if all they get the ticket money. Assuming an average ticket of about £15 (more full pay adults during crisis), that £10,500-13,500 from the tickets to pay weekly (two weeks worth) salaries, website costs, ticketing costs, stewards and security (higher than normal), grounds cleaning and preparation, probably additional portable toilets and cleaning stations, etc (if standing is out, the income would be around £8,415).

Does anyone know how much of the average team’s game day revenue comes from food/drink, hospitality, merchandise, etc?

Roughly 3,300 is about right but that includes the Directors Box, Hospitality Box, Press Box and also a significant number of seats now covered by a tv gantry in the BDS Stand. There aren't 3,300 sellable seats. Be under 3,000 I presume. And about 1,000 of them are in the old Main Stand which has smaller seats, closer rows, no cross aisles, and a low rook, all of which means the distancing is likely to be higher. I think we'd be at the low end of your numbers for social distanced seating.

And no, you couldn't possibly make it work financially but that's already a far bigger problem for potentially playing closed door in the first place even before we get to social distanced crowds.

52 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Since movie theatres have been using online ticketing for a while, there is likely some software that could be pretty easily adapted to address the seating issues and automatically space by some rule, but it has limitations:

1) All buy online before the match, no day of the game or at the gate tickets. Then, how to check tickets on the way in without getting people close?

2) Spacing requirement would have to be coded, so that as people buy tickets, the areas that they can be seated are shown to them, but people would also be limited as to where they could buy so as not to unduly restrain space. That is, is you want seats for five together, there would be fewer places to put you so as not to block off huge areas. It’s likely they would generally fill from one side across.

3) There would have to be an assumption of responsibility by the purchaser to ensure that the group seated together meets the standards to be allowed to be seated together. At some point you have to trust people...even when they often aren’t trustworthy. There would, naturally, be an exception in that they would not trust any Government official.

4) The only way to prevent movement is no leaving your seat except for physiological needs, and that would have to be carefully choreographed. To do that, you need more stewards...and to do that, you need some free space for them AND testing for them.

5] How do you stage arrivals/departures AND keep those areas clean? How often do you clean the facilities?

The likes of Ayr already use online advance bought tickets that can easily be scanned through at a big exit gate with an electronic reader by a steward who could be wearing PPE.

I already said I think realistically you wouldn't be able to pre-book seats. I think you'd have to take the next available seat as you enter and fill up by rows in pre-designated seats which would preclude families sitting together anyway which thereby removed problem 3. Toilet usage is another issue but I guess it would be deemed passage as long as not actually touching was sufficiently fleeting to be low risk just as it is in supermarket aisles.

Arrivals I've suggested above. Departures would presumably just mean people sitting in their seats until allowed to leave on a row by row organised basis. The "subway loyal" would be screwed of course. No leaving early or it would have to be very carefully managed.

32 minutes ago, Flash said:

It all falls into the category of more trouble than it is worth. Either wait until there are no social distancing rules, or don’t bother, imo.

This I suspect. I'm very much in the camp until I can see how it can practically and affordably be done of thinking that we shouldn't be playing until crowds are allowed as "normal" or very close to it.

[TxRover]

In the end, it’s up to clubs to figure if it worth the costs to have some people in the stands...and that’s likely an individual decision by club.

31 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Roughly 3,300 is about right but that includes the Directors Box, Hospitality Box, Press Box and also a significant number of seats now covered by a tv gantry in the BDS Stand. There aren't 3,300 sellable seats. Be under 3,000 I presume. And about 1,000 of them are in the old Main Stand which has smaller seats, closer rows, no cross aisles, and a low rook, all of which means the distancing is likely to be higher. I think we'd be at the low end of your numbers for social distanced seating.

And no, you couldn't possibly make it work financially but that's already a far bigger problem for potentially playing closed door in the first place even before we get to social distanced crowds.

The likes of Ayr already use online advance bought tickets that can easily be scanned through at a big exit gate with an electronic reader by a steward who could be wearing PPE.

I already said I think realistically you wouldn't be able to pre-book seats. I think you'd have to take the next available seat as you enter and fill up by rows in pre-designated seats which would preclude families sitting together anyway which thereby removed problem 3. Toilet usage is another issue but I guess it would be deemed passage as long as not actually touching was sufficiently fleeting to be low risk just as it is in supermarket aisles.

Arrivals I've suggested above. Departures would presumably just mean people sitting in their seats until allowed to leave on a row by row organised basis. The "subway loyal" would be screwed of course. No leaving early or it would have to be very carefully managed.

This I suspect. I'm very much in the camp until I can see how it can practically and affordably be done of thinking that we shouldn't be playing until crowds are allowed as "normal" or very close to it.

OK, that’s  useful data. Filling as entered would result in problems from week two on, as people twigged to the process and location s filled first and last. If the groups were in staggered rows, the entry/exit would be significantly eased. I think, on reflection, the standing areas might be more easily used/marked for spacing purposes, but regardless we’re looking at something in the £5-10,000 range, per home game, for likely maximum ticket income for a team like QoS. You are probably right about it not working, and keeping the stadium effectively closed and broadcasting would likely be more practical, especially if the fans willingly paid a bit more if there is more than one or two watching at their location.

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

Are folk forgetting the fifteen minute thing? Turnstile guy with perspex screen and mask sees each person for about 7 seconds.
 

No, but the ticket taker, protected as they are, would be exposed for a couple of hours to a host of persons. There is also the matter of regardless of the screen and all, with a likely mass of people in the general vicinity, spaced out or not, unless he/she is in a space suit...

[Finlay21]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

No, but the ticket taker, protected as they are, would be exposed for a couple of hours to a host of persons. There is also the matter of regardless of the screen and all, with a likely mass of people in the general vicinity, spaced out or not, unless he/she is in a space suit...

Checkout operators work between 4-8 hours shifts up to 5 days a week , person checking ticket with normal PPE ( mouth covering , hand gel or gloves ) would be sufficient 

[TxRover]

40 minutes ago, Robbo63 said:

Checkout operators work between 4-8 hours shifts up to 5 days a week , person checking ticket with normal PPE ( mouth covering , hand gel or gloves ) would be sufficient 

With a single, orderly line of quiet people...

Just saying, there are loads of issues to consider, but your point is well taken.

[Finlay21]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

With a single, orderly line of quiet people...

Just saying, there are loads of issues to consider, but your point is well taken.

Lots of issues that need attention, biggest one being fans following guidelines, the minority is just as important as the majority in this one , would only need a couple of dozen to spoil it for everyone 

[RossBFaeDundee]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8400783/Scottish-Championship-clubs-set-play-nine-games-new-season-begin-October.html

[Tony Wonder]

4 hours ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8400783/Scottish-Championship-clubs-set-play-nine-games-new-season-begin-October.html

What a fucking joke that is.

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said:

What a fucking joke that is.

Itll probably end up being a December start once Hearts start their squealing and wailing all over again.

Cant wait for the 10 attempts at getting a vote for making an earlier start date/later end date.

[Tony Wonder]

9 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Itll probably end up being a December start once Hearts start their squealing and wailing all over again.

Cant wait for the 10 attempts at getting a vote for making an earlier start date/later end date.

Probably mate, probably.

[D.A.F.C]

What will the cost be to watch games?

[AyrExile]

Let’s hope Covid doesn’t turn out to be a seasonal virus that causes havoc in the winter and is fairly dormant in the summer  

[The Master]

1 hour ago, Tony Wonder said:

What a fucking joke that is.

Spot on.

Everyone knows it should say “nine games fewer”. 

[pub car king]

What's the point delaying it until october if it is still closed doors.

[San Starko Rover]

What's the point delaying it until october if it is still closed doors.

Wages I guess, October is probably the time where the government stop paying 80% of wages, if the league starts earlier clubs will have to pay wages for longer.