Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[Homer Thompson]

30 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It's interesting this.

For me, the similar decision Queens have reached struck me initially as a complete no brainer.  Most these players would have been released now, pandemic or not, so doing so in these circumstances seems entirely sensible.

I suppose the difference though, is that they'll be unable to pick up a new employer just now, so furlough could come into play. If keeping them on would have allowed that, perhaps we should have offered it, so long as it carried no risk to the club.

Is there genuine doubt about this?  

Doubt about what, the risk to the club?

Some clubs seem to think so. 

Theres no doubt that it could have been offered, in that the guidance allows for the extension of fixed term contracts. The doubt seems to come from the fact that these players would have been released otherwise and the risk of that being frowned upon and either the clubs having to pay back the money or worse at a later date.

[cmontheloknow]

If this had struck say in October, would seasonal summer workers be furloughed into the new year? Or would they be let go? Fixed term contracts that have a clear reason to end is different to fixed term contracts that the employer & employee would likely see extended if it suited both parties and there were no reasons for it not to end. Football contracts are an unusual case due to fact that the older OR younger you are, the chances of being offered one decrease. 

As with a number of areas of the law, this can be argued in both directions.

Edited May 24, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[SueSue]

1 hour ago, eez-eh said:

The furlough scheme is designed to stop folk from losing their income as a result of the pandemic. The vast majority of players who are released would normally find another club within 1/2 months. There’s next to no chance anyone who gets released right now will find another club (or even another job altogether) any time soon.

On that basis this seems to be exactly what the scheme is designed for. And it’s hardly like it’s just football clubs are doing it, plenty of other industries have been extending fixed term contracts or even re-hiring recently redundant staff to ensure they get a wage. because the rules allow them to do so. It’s not like we’re talking about well-paid footballers here either, there’ll be plenty of people on here who earn far more them.

I really can’t fathom anyone vehemently defending chucking an entire squad onto the scrap heap, who would normally have options for finding employment, but now have next to no chance of finding a job in the coming months or even year. Unless you’re just so blinded by support for your club, or just a bit of a c**t.

I am surprised said c***s have not had a go at you yet.

Give it time

[Homer Thompson]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

If this had struck say in October, would seasonal summer workers be furloughed into the new year? Or would they be let go? Fixed term contracts that have a clear reason to end is different to fixed term contracts that the employer & employee would likely see extended if it suited both parties and there were no reasons for it not to end. Football contracts are an unusual case due to fact that the older OR younger you are, the chances of being offered one decrease. 

As with a number of areas of the law, this can be argued in both directions.

Of course it can be argued in both directions, only currently only one side seems to have any evidence in the public domain.

Your analogy doesnt really work, Im afraid. Seasonal workers would have no expectation of getting a similar job, with another employer, at the end of the season. Or if they did, but were prevented in doing so by a government lockdown then, yes, theres no reason why their contracts wouldnt be extended.

[cmontheloknow]

16 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Of course it can be argued in both directions, only currently only one side seems to have any evidence in the public domain.

Your analogy doesnt really work, Im afraid. Seasonal workers would have no expectation of getting a similar job, with another employer, at the end of the season. Or if they did, but were prevented in doing so by a government lockdown then, yes, theres no reason why their contracts wouldnt be extended.

I guess what I am saying is that a fixed term contract is a fixed term contract, and once it has expired there no necessity for an employer to extend. I am on one myself. I know its end date and wouldn't have any expectation of being furloughed beyond that date.

Footballers go from year to year on contracts and it's survival of the fittest who gets another. They can never expect to get a new one in full time football. There is nothing legally stopping players getting new clubs - that's a decision for clubs to make.

[ribzanelli]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Footballers go from year to year on contracts and it's survival of the fittest who gets another. They can never expect to get a new one in full time football. There is nothing legally stopping players getting new clubs - that's a decision for clubs to make.

This is disingenuous

In normal times released players will have an opportunity to engage with other potential employers but nobody is going to sign a free agent in the current climate as they would be liable for 100% of the salary

[No_Problemo]

Many professional footballers in fact don't just walk into a new club and drop out of the game entirely. If you're a bit part player in the Scottish second tier then that is a career obstacle that you should be prepared for. They also aren't left without an income: it's just off to the Job Centre for them like the rest of the plebs. Footballers do not have a divine right to their chosen 'full time' career.
The reason why they're out of work is 90% down to the standard contract cycle of football. It is not incumbent on clubs to just keep them around indefinitely and improper to do so at the taxpayers' expense beyond the end of the current season.

Except that generally players will be aware of the likelihood of receiving a new contract elsewhere and can plan accordingly. This situation is slightly different.

Not entirely sure if you are aware but the job centre don’t immediately provide you with money either.

[BukyOHare]

3 hours ago, Grant228 said:

Dunfermline Athletic, the club that's came out of administration with largely the same board that saved the club, not taking any chances that might see us back in that situation. If we have had any inkling from HMRC that we could be bummed for this further down the line, then I can absolutely understand why we're not doing it. 

Dundee and Ayr have rich owners who have shown they're willing to pay off large losses. Dunfermline and QoTS don't. 

Our budget in this league, if rumour is to be believed, should have us around the bottom third of the table. It's very much a tight ship. 

Our owner makes up a difference, yes, but not in a reckless never ending money pit that we had in the Dalziel days. 

Hence the reason why we seem to be on a massive rebuild job every summer when our better players leave for pastures new. 

[Homer Thompson]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I guess what I am saying is that a fixed term contract is a fixed term contract, and once it has expired there no necessity for an employer to extend. I am on one myself. I know its end date and wouldn't have any expectation of being furloughed beyond that date.

 

Nothing you say there is wrong and under normal circumstances no player would expect an extension. However, these and normal times and the gov guidelines specifically deal with fixed term contracts and specifically say they can be extended and the employees furloughed.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Grant228 said:

Dunfermline Athletic, the club that's came out of administration with largely the same board that saved the club, not taking any chances that might see us back in that situation. If we have had any inkling from HMRC that we could be bummed for this further down the line, then I can absolutely understand why we're not doing it. 

Dundee and Ayr have rich owners who have shown they're willing to pay off large losses. Dunfermline and QoTS don't. 

Lachlan is comfortable but he's far from mega rich.

I think a lot of other supporters see him as an American who's come in and bought the club, however that's not the case at all, it's a family connection and the shares were passed to him from his Father (Donald Cameron who was a Director of the club), as such he's always done right by us, even though many of our fans have at times thought otherwise.

Ultimately he's an Ayr supporter and sees himself as merely a custodian and so far he's acted very responsibly so as to ensure the longevity and survival of our club.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

I guess what I am saying is that a fixed term contract is a fixed term contract, and once it has expired there no necessity for an employer to extend. I am on one myself. I know its end date and wouldn't have any expectation of being furloughed beyond that date.

Footballers go from year to year on contracts and it's survival of the fittest who gets another. They can never expect to get a new one in full time football. There is nothing legally stopping players getting new clubs - that's a decision for clubs to make.

I agree with this, and it's why I'm a bit ambivalent over Queens' actions.

In truth, the Queens players freed this season would not have been likely in the majority of cases to secure another full-time contract to play football, with us, or almost then by definition, anywhere. 

I therefore don't actually feel that they've been so massively disadvantaged here.  Obviously, the poor sods would be entering the market for alternative employment at the worst possible time, but I think a lot of them would have been entering it anyway.  They do suffer further though in that part-time sides won't be hiring either.

The bigger picture obviously isn't reliant on the particulars of our circumstances, but if extending the contracts of these guys would have helped them out without cost to the club, we should maybe have done it.

The main feature here though, isn't really to do with a virus.  That is merely exacerbating the intrinsic insecurity and precarious nature of trying to play full-time professional football at this level.  I've often thought that if given the option as a young kid, you'd have to take it.  I can't help feeling, however, that if you can't be a bit better, you'd be better served by being a bit worse and required to have a proper job.

[Rob1885]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

Lachlan is comfortable but he's far from mega rich.

I think a lot of other supporters see him as an American who's come in and bought the club, however that's not the case at all, it's a family connection and the shares were passed to him from his Father (Donald Cameron who was a Director of the club), as such he's always done right by us, even though many of our fans have at times thought otherwise.

Ultimately he's an Ayr supporter and sees himself as merely a custodian and so far he's acted very responsibly so as to ensure the longevity and survival of our club.

From the outside looking in he seems a stand up guy, big fan

[RossBFaeDundee]

Imo teams should be made to play with the players they have under contract and nothing more. Might be tough for QoS, but on the other hand 11 v 3 would be funny to watch.

[paulbrucerick]

6 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Imo teams should be made to play with the players they have under contract and nothing more. Might be tough for QoS, but on the other hand 11 v 3 would be funny to watch.

They would probably still beat Ayr at Palmerston!

[D'Jaffo]

Imo teams should be made to play with the players they have under contract and nothing more. Might be tough for QoS, but on the other hand 11 v 3 would be funny to watch.

I like this but would be far more interesting if teams could fill out their starting 11 with fans.

[ayrunitedfw]

4 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

I like this but would be far more interesting if teams could fill out their starting 11 with fans.

D’Jaffo and Moore up front. 

[Derry Alli]

10 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

I like this but would be far more interesting if teams could fill out their starting 11 with fans.

I reckon a few clubs will be signing players from the juniors to pad out squads so, technique wise, just giving fans a shot won't be much different tbh. 

[Crawford]

24 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

I like this but would be far more interesting if teams could fill out their starting 11 with fans.

A return to "local heroes" football might just be the best thing to come out of this. Fat Derek the cabbie in goal and Butcher Mick up front

[D'Jaffo]

D’Jaffo and Moore up front. 

At least I’d make him look good.

[Sting777]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5630269/scotland-new-season-one-league-16-teams/