Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[Granny Danger]

Just now, Dele said:

Is he dead? 

No, only his party.  I will rephrase.

Jim McGovern has IRA tattoos?  Are you sure about that?

[Derry Alli]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

Jim McGovern has IRA tattoos?  Are you sure about that?

I was never sure, hence why at first I asked if it was Joe Fitzpatrick. 

It's certainly one of them from that neck of the woods, though. 

[Morton Supporter]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

The UK Government is only phasing out support in exchange for businesses returning to normal trading. Which, as we can already see from the English schools debate going on right now, involves a loosening of the social distancing advice as the government recognises that it is completely incompatible with the normal functioning of the economy.

The fact that the SG is largely reliant on Westminster is important only in the sense that when the UK Government decides to scale down its public health restrictions and according support for affected businesses, the SG will be obliged to follow suit due to the end of the same financial package to the devolved administrations. It does not mean that businesses in Scotland cannot be supported until the stage that they can return to normal trading.

That's completely irrelevant to the immediate decision of the government to either provide support to businesses that are unable to trade thanks to its public health restrictions or wind down its restrictions. We will already pay through the nose for the current lockdown measures in the long run.

The fundamental mistake that you are making throughout this debate is thinking that this is a problem that only affects professional football or sports more broadly: it impacts the entire hospitality, leisure and tourism sectors that make up a substantial portion of the Scottish and UK economies. So the SG will in fact be obliged to provide business support until its own restrictions on normal activity are lifted; unless of course they are stupid enough to risk a wave of business collapse and unemployment immediately before a Holyrood election.

I’m not misunderstanding that last point.

What you’re doing is treating football and other leisure or recreation sectors as a homogenous block; I’m saying that’s not right, and as the SG will have a finite support to offer, that’ll be proven when restaurants and other, more important sectors are prioritised.

But I’ve said about as much as I can be bothered to on this.

I would return to my original question - in the face of a pandemic, our understanding of which is only developing, with our clubs’ largest source of revenue lost, with the majority of players out of contract, when the league format is still under question, and when we can’t afford, or justify, the testing and healthcare resources needed - what is to be gained by trying to play football?

[Ludo*1]

Definitely not Joe FitzPatrick. Don't know about Jim McGovern but he is/was the thickest politician I've ever came across and that's some going.

Few examples:

Screaming at a waitress, 'Do you know who I am?' in The Counting House

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-mp-jim-mcgovern-escorted-pub-police-1507851

Launched an appeal over a £23.90 train ticket in expenses that eventually cost the taxpayer £27,000

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/9993703/Jim-McGovern-MPs-train-ticket-row-costs-public-27000.html

Against gay rights

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11974/jim_mcgovern/dundee_west/divisions?policy=826

Sadly, the videos of him showing him up as being an absolute fucking bellend and a moron don't seem to be on Youtube anymore. There was a particularly embarrassing one for him during the period that Jim Murphy was on his soap box tour.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ludo*1

[vikingTON]

11 minutes ago, Morton Supporter said:

I’m not misunderstanding that last point.

What you’re doing is treating football and other leisure or recreation sectors as a homogenous block; I’m saying that’s not right, and as the SG will have a finite support to offer, that’ll be proven when restaurants and other, more important sectors are prioritised.

The economic benefit (as well as political cost) of letting a local football club collapse in the midst of this crisis is significantly higher than one or even ten local restaurants going under. Not that there will be any real struggle over who gets what support: if the government continues to insist on social distancing then it will have to continue supporting a whole tract of businesses, in the same way that football clubs are already included as part of the current furlough scheme. That or replacing their current advice with less disruptive alternatives are the only two credible political options on the table.

Quote

I would return to my original question - in the face of a pandemic, our understanding of which is only developing, with our clubs’ largest source of revenue lost, with the majority of players out of contract, when the league format is still under question, and when we can’t afford, or justify, the testing and healthcare resources needed - what is to be gained by trying to play football?

Firstly, the league format is not under any serious question and the majority of players are out of contract in Scottish football every summer, so those are just straw man arguments.

Secondly, your alternative of 'let's mothball things until it all goes away' still relies on a timeframe that is not even remotely within the power of the SPFL or health authorities to deliver. If you're ditching professional football until 2022 with no government support in the meantime then you are essentially folding every single Scottish football club and planning to start over again. It is absolutely preferable for the SPFL to attempt to restart football in cooperation with the government and health advice from a keeping the industry alive perspective: whether you will like the end product or not is another matter entirely.

Edited May 17, 2020 by vikingTON

[Ad Lib]

If anyone thinks Scottish football is in line for substantial and continuing Government subsidy over and above the furlough, grant and loan measures that are available to businesses generally at the moment, I think they are being very optimistic.

We are going to lose clubs to insolvency events. The only bailout clubs will be getting is if other clubs decide to play charity.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, ecto said:

I am now slowly reaching the opinion, that it might be better, missing next season altogether and starting 21/22 as normal, I know there will be player contract implications, but that's for the authorities, clubs and union to sort out

There's nothing to say that 21/22 will be any different from next year , the year after that or even now.

As time goes on Governments across the world are waking up to the fact that life must go on one way or another as a vaccine may never be found, world economies are shot to pieces and  they really can't take much more. The damage already done will see future generations much much poorer in relative terms and the tipping point for most nations has either been reached already or very close to it.

While we appear to have gotten things under control for the time being, there's talk of second waves, third waves etc, etc and many also believe that we are stuck with this forever and must just learn to live with it.

Where does that leave us and spectator sports like football ?

Who can say ?

It could be argued that as a population we're now better prepared, our health services are now more experienced and better geared up to deal with an outbreak, so maybe now is as good a time as any to throw caution to the wind and "go back to normal" as it were ??

Otherwise, what's the alternatives ???

[SueSue]

3 hours ago, Dele said:

Footballers literally skip queues for jobs simply because they played football and folk doing interviews want to say they're pals with footballers. 

It happens at every level, there are junior players signing for teams because they get a better Mon - Fri job out of it. 

Save us the 'woe is them'. There will be plenty of folk out of work who won't get half the opportunities they will just because of something they done in a completely unrelated field. 

A large proportion of Championship players.... especially young ones will be earning less than or equal to you... unless you are going to chip up you have lost your job.

As you said earlier..... most Championship players are shit anyway so why would they walk into another job ?.. So you shouldn’t have to much to worry about ...
 

Sounds more like a ‘ woe is me ‘ comment on your part.....

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, SueSue said:

A large proportion of Championship players.... especially young ones will be earning less than or equal to you... unless you are going to chip up you have lost your job.

As you said earlier..... most Championship players are shit anyway so why would they walk into another job ?.. So you shouldn’t have to much to worry about ...

The world's smallest violin is currently playing for the next crop of Herbalife salesmen.

[SueSue]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

The world's smallest violin is currently playing for the next crop of Herbalife salesmen.

Now there is a shock......... you have been doing so well today.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Definitely not Joe FitzPatrick. Don't know about Jim McGovern but he is/was the thickest politician I've ever came across and that's some going.

Few examples:

Screaming at a waitress, 'Do you know who I am?' in The Counting House

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-mp-jim-mcgovern-escorted-pub-police-1507851

Launched an appeal over a £23.90 train ticket in expenses that eventually cost the taxpayer £27,000

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/9993703/Jim-McGovern-MPs-train-ticket-row-costs-public-27000.html

Against gay rights

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11974/jim_mcgovern/dundee_west/divisions?policy=826

Sadly, the videos of him showing him up as being an absolute fucking bellend and a moron don't seem to be on Youtube anymore. There was a particularly embarrassing one for him during the period that Jim Murphy was on his soap box tour.

McGovern certainly was/is homophobic.  A very distasteful and unacceptable trait.

[Guest SJP79]

2 hours ago, WATTOO said:

There's nothing to say that 21/22 will be any different from next year , the year after that or even now.

As time goes on Governments across the world are waking up to the fact that life must go on one way or another as a vaccine may never be found, world economies are shot to pieces and  they really can't take much more. The damage already done will see future generations much much poorer in relative terms and the tipping point for most nations has either been reached already or very close to it.

While we appear to have gotten things under control for the time being, there's talk of second waves, third waves etc, etc and many also believe that we are stuck with this forever and must just learn to live with it.

Where does that leave us and spectator sports like football ?

Who can say ?

It could be argued that as a population we're now better prepared, our health services are now more experienced and better geared up to deal with an outbreak, so maybe now is as good a time as any to throw caution to the wind and "go back to normal" as it were ??

Otherwise, what's the alternatives ???

Economics one of the great mysteries of life. 

I don't believe a lot of thier projections regarding economies taking years to recover, simple fact is the global population is still soaring even with Covid-19, population growth and business growth are like two pea's in a pod. 

They will get this under control and a vaccine will be developed in time, way too much to lose for the rich toadies at the top of the pyramid to let it fail, Spanish flu ran riot back in 1918 but they reckon it circulated for 2 years before they even knew about it,  look at the gulf in quality of technology, education, medical science, they are tracking the DNA code for Covid-19 ffs, the boffins will be working day and night to get it nailed and who ever cracks it gets thier place in the history books and the pounds ,dollars, yen etc will come rolling in for the multi national pharmaceutical companies. 

[AyrExile]

50 minutes ago, SJP79 said:

Economics one of the great mysteries of life. 

I don't believe a lot of thier projections regarding economies taking years to recover, simple fact is the global population is still soaring even with Covid-19, population growth and business growth are like two pea's in a pod. 

They will get this under control and a vaccine will be developed in time, way too much to lose for the rich toadies at the top of the pyramid to let it fail, Spanish flu ran riot back in 1918 but they reckon it circulated for 2 years before they even knew about it,  look at the gulf in quality of technology, education, medical science, they are tracking the DNA code for Covid-19 ffs, the boffins will be working day and night to get it nailed and who ever cracks it gets thier place in the history books and the pounds ,dollars, yen etc will come rolling in for the multi national pharmaceutical companies. 

Some of the vaccines are on a not for profit basis 

[Jan mosniack]

Altruism is rarely associated with drug companies.

[Dunning1874]

I know everyone's in a tough position here regarding the start of next season, and it's no fault of the SFA & SPFL either as they obviously can't plan with any certainty when next season can start, whether fans can attend and what means of generating revenue clubs will have if they can't. They can't make any decisions on that until we know what's going on with societal restrictions and no one can say for sure what position we'll be in months from now.

What would be useful though as we move into late May/early June and the time where contracts will be expiring is some clarity on loosening the rules over contracts and transfer windows. Clubs quite rightly aren't going to be handing out new contracts to cover next season when they have no idea when they'll have income again and it would be downright irresponsible and stupid to do so, but there's player welfare to consider as well.

We know the furlough scheme has been extended to August and will cover wages for employees who have fixed terms contracts extended but not new employees - ie a player getting a new contract from their current club will be covered but one signing for a new club won't. Surely in those circumstances it's sensible to remove any rules about contracts being required to run window to window or anything like that, so clubs can extend contracts for as long as the furlough scheme is in place at least to protect players? Otherwise we're going to have hundreds of players becoming unemployed in the next few weeks while other clubs can't sign them, throwing them on the scrapheap with no idea when clubs will start making signings again.

I know the SFA have said this is a thing they're considering and they'll have an answer by June 9th, but with the window opening on the 10th they really need to be providing clarity at least a couple of weeks before that to give clubs and players time to sort things out.

[D'Jaffo]

Dundee have offered their out of contract players deal until the end of June.

Can see most clubs following suit.

[EdinburghPar1975]

22 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

Dundee have offered their out of contract players deal until the end of June.

Can see most clubs following suit.

Not sure about that. It'll depend greatly on the furlough schemes and how they are impacted. I understood that clubs were not allowed to provide new contracts to those on the scheme? Also, as soon as players undertook any club activity I thought they had to be removed from furlough.

I'd be surprised if a lot of clubs signed any new contracts with players until they knew when any new season was to start and they were due to start training.

[D'Jaffo]

Not sure about that. It'll depend greatly on the furlough schemes and how they are impacted. I understood that clubs were not allowed to provide new contracts to those on the scheme? Also, as soon as players undertook any club activity I thought they had to be removed from furlough.
I'd be surprised if a lot of clubs signed any new contracts with players until they knew when any new season was to start and they were due to start training.

Players already at a club can sign a new contract with that club and remain on the furlough scheme. It’s only new incoming players that won’t be covered.

What players have been taking part in any club activity? There’s been no group training and anything players have been doing is their own personal fitness which has likely been set out by their club but theres not much anyone can do about that.

[Parttimesupporter]

39 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

I know everyone's in a tough position here regarding the start of next season, and it's no fault of the SFA & SPFL either as they obviously can't plan with any certainty when next season can start, whether fans can attend and what means of generating revenue clubs will have if they can't. They can't make any decisions on that until we know what's going on with societal restrictions and no one can say for sure what position we'll be in months from now.

What would be useful though as we move into late May/early June and the time where contracts will be expiring is some clarity on loosening the rules over contracts and transfer windows. Clubs quite rightly aren't going to be handing out new contracts to cover next season when they have no idea when they'll have income again and it would be downright irresponsible and stupid to do so, but there's player welfare to consider as well.

We know the furlough scheme has been extended to August and will cover wages for employees who have fixed terms contracts extended but not new employees - ie a player getting a new contract from their current club will be covered but one signing for a new club won't. Surely in those circumstances it's sensible to remove any rules about contracts being required to run window to window or anything like that, so clubs can extend contracts for as long as the furlough scheme is in place at least to protect players? Otherwise we're going to have hundreds of players becoming unemployed in the next few weeks while other clubs can't sign them, throwing them on the scrapheap with no idea when clubs will start making signings again.

I know the SFA have said this is a thing they're considering and they'll have an answer by June 9th, but with the window opening on the 10th they really need to be providing clarity at least a couple of weeks before that to give clubs and players time to sort things out.

Agree that 9 June would be cutting it very fine.  My understanding is that furlough payments won't be made if a contract stops and a new one starts after a gap, but they do continue if an employee's contract is extended.  I thought that some players' contracts expired before 9 June, so imagine the SPFA will be all over this one.

I can see clubs being keen to see the announcement at the end of the day about how much of the tab they have to pick up later in the year before making decisions (based on the widely held assumption that it may be quite a while before anyone other than the Premiership starts playing. 

 

 

[Spikethedee]

So, as far as I can see, the Premiership has been called as it is (St J & Hibs swapping over notwithstanding), leaving Hearts & DABS swapping places for next season. There is a glimmer of hope for Hearts in that Budge has been granted an opportunity to look at a limited form of reconstruction.(I feel that this is more of a "you have a wee look and we will pretend that we are taking it seriously" about it.)

 

So, we still haven't got a clear understanding of what will happen when next season starts. It is literally a Sisyphusian clusterfork of impressively great proportions.