Skyline Drifter Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Stag Nation said: OK, so maybe you could explain the differences between the Scottish and Spanish business environments? I've got better and more urgent things to do with my life. Whether you think the Spanish (or German for that matter as people regularly harp on about their 50+1 model) football club model could work in the UK is neither here nor there. Fact is it's not how club structure in the UK works and never will be. It matters not one iota how Real Madrid and Barcelona are run in context of Morton, and Partick Thistle, and Queen of the South and Falkirk, etc. Edited December 17, 2020 by Skyline Drifter -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoBNob Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: I've got better and more urgent things to do with my life. Whether you think the Spanish (or German for that matter as people regularly harp on about their 50+1 model) football club model could work in the UK is neither here nor there. Fact is it's not how club structure in the UK works and never will be. It matters not one iota how Real Madrid and Barcelona are run in context of Morton, and Partick Thistle, and Queen of the South and Falkirk, etc. Only matters when you're talking about big clubs really, your Barcelona and Dunfermlines etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALDERON Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Broken Algorithms said: I'd imagine Dunfermline will be fine given they have their investors who have already said they'll tide them over the pandemic. As you mention, Lachlan Cameron was very assured in the Summer that Ayr didn't need to worry about going under and that they were comfortable handling the situation. As for ourselves, we've never been the picture of financial health but there's a few factors to consider. In the Summer, Bill Clark was saying that we would be hoping for fans back in January but that looked like it might have been possible in early Autumn of this year - obviously this was before the clusterfuck occurred with schools and Universities returning back to re-ignite the virus. Nobody really knows how much we recouped in the way of legal fees from the Summer's escapades: after arbitration went in our favour everyone moved on and the clubs were required to keep quiet. If we've recouped the legal fees, then it might free up money we had from the crowdfunder in the Summer - that's working very much on assumption that it hasn't already been used to offset the period we didn't play (indeed, it's probably smarter to write that money off as gone already). If we're struggling by January, I'd imagine we'd be able to tide things over with potential player sales. Dylan Tait will inevitably leave the club well before his contract expiry in 2024: he's a superb talent and has been attracting attention from several large clubs. I can't recall who said it but seemingly Everton were tracking his progress. I'd hope that if Tait goes, we can get a similar deal to the one we did for Kieron Bowie (£150k + add ons for future). Similarly, clubs might try to poach the likes of Duku, Hendry and Musonda who all have less than 6 months on their contracts and are all looking very assured. As ever with Rovers, the picture is hugely unclear. The structure of the club is very complex with numerous holding companies. I'd imagine Stark's Park properties will be fine given the stadium seems to be in constant use - you've got Rovers, Fife Elite, youth teams and occasional teams needing to rent the ground to play games (like Dundonald Bluebell). As for the club itself we can only speculate. The only positive is that worst comes to the worst we have assets in the forms of players who should have some value. John Sim said in his interview a few months back that the club will be fine this season if fans aren't allowed back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: Whether you think the Spanish (or German for that matter as people regularly harp on about their 50+1 model) football club model could work in the UK is neither here nor there. Fact is it's not how club structure in the UK works and never will be. What an absolutely piss-poor, precedent based argument. The football club model does not 'work' and is in fact broken at several levels across UK leagues: in Scotland the breaking point is the second tier; in England tiers 2-5 are a binfire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, virginton said: What an absolutely piss-poor, precedent based argument. The football club model does not 'work' and is in fact broken at several levels across UK leagues: in Scotland the breaking point is the second tier; in England tiers 2-5 are a binfire. What an absolute piss-poor irrelevant deflection. Whether it works or not (I don't particularly disagree that it doesn't) still doesn't matter one bit. The entire set up of football in this country isn't going to be broken up and started again. You work within what you have. The Spanish and German way of doing things is completely irrelevant here. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag Nation Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: I've got better and more urgent things to do with my life. Whether you think the Spanish (or German for that matter as people regularly harp on about their 50+1 model) football club model could work in the UK is neither here nor there. Fact is it's not how club structure in the UK works and never will be. It matters not one iota how Real Madrid and Barcelona are run in context of Morton, and Partick Thistle, and Queen of the South and Falkirk, etc. Clairvoyance now! Just because no-one has made a spectacular success of fan ownership in Scotland is hardly conclusive proof that it can't be done. The "traditional" structure has seen no shortage of failures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 We could all find some oil and gas millionaire to write off £2 million a year with the aim to finish 10th in the Premiership too, I suppose. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu2910 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Not sure a comparison to Barcelona and Real Madrid makes sense when the shirt sales of those 2 clubs probably outstrips the turnover of every scottish club combined. They are major global companies with constant opportunities for money making. Not exactly the same as the global superpowers we find in the Scottish championship. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 My point was that 2000 fans with £5k in the bank can’t finance the club in the same way as one guy with £20m, and that inevitably means that in most cases the team on the pitch will be weaker. If that wasn’t the case, most if not all clubs would already be fan owned.Being reliant on 2,000 people of moderate means as opposed to a single rich individual means that there isn’t a single point of failure. Trust me on this I know what I’m talking about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Stag Nation said: Clairvoyance now! Just because no-one has made a spectacular success of fan ownership in Scotland is hardly conclusive proof that it can't be done. The "traditional" structure has seen no shortage of failures. Er that's not clairvoyance "now", my first post on the subject said exactly the same and you responded to it without mentioning that aspect. You can argue that fan ownership of a sort can work in Scotland if you like. I've already said it can to an extent with the sort of model Motherwell, Hearts and Dunfermline had where a fan group owns a majority stake in shares but doesn't actually RUN the club. But in such instances it largely depends on the same luck / good appointments in the people actually running it that exists with finding the right owners. It doesn't really change the risk profile all that much. Fact remains, the examples of Real Madrid and Barcelona are utterly irrelevant. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu2910 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Being reliant on 2,000 people of moderate means as opposed to a single rich individual means that there isn’t a single point of failure. Trust me on this I know what I’m talking about.I’m a Dundee fan, I don’t think that needs explained to me! I do agree and I never said that a rich owner is the better option. 2000 owners is arguably more stable but likely less successful.Stable is better but fans get bored. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: What an absolute piss-poor irrelevant deflection. Whether it works or not (I don't particularly disagree that it doesn't) still doesn't matter one bit. The entire set up of football in this country isn't going to be broken up and started again. You work within what you have. The Spanish and German way of doing things is completely irrelevant here. It's quite clearly not 'completely irrelevant', given that Germany has been a direct model for fan ownership schemes. There is no top-down instruction in Scottish football telling clubs that this how they should be run because It Was Always This Way. The change comes through individual clubs. Motherwell are already fan-owned, Saint Mirren are progressing to be a fan-owned club, Dunfermline are a part fan-owned club, Hearts are en route to be a fan-owned club in the near future. I'm really not sure how many more examples you need of football clubs actually breaking with the old model and starting again, before you concede that you are in fact talking bollocks. You do not have to be an enthusiast of fan-ownership to accept that fact that they are part of the Scottish professional football ecosystem now, in the same way that a smoke-filled boardroom of local investors has been for over a century. Edited December 17, 2020 by vikingTON 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 We could all find some oil and gas millionaire to write off £2 million a year with the aim to finish 10th in the Premiership too, I suppose.I assume you are talking about Uncle Roy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1885 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 It seems to be working OK for Barcelona and Real Madrid.I've read some rubbish on here in my time. This is up there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Rob1885 said: 5 hours ago, Stag Nation said: It seems to be working OK for Barcelona and Real Madrid. I've read some rubbish on here in my time. This is up there. Yeah, I'm pretty certain Barca are about € 0.5 billion in debt. Real aren't much better tbh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true_rover Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Yeah, I'm pretty certain Barca are about € 0.5 billion in debt. Real aren't much better tbh. And Barca also deferring January's pay to the end of the season.https://www.espn.co.uk/football/barcelona/story/4247102/barcelona-players-agree-to-wage-deferral-that-could-save-club-172m 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Yeah, I'm pretty certain Barca are about € 0.5 billion in debt. Real aren't much better tbh. Although Atletico’s debt is twice that so maybe we can’t put everything down to ownership models 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 47 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Although Atletico’s debt is twice that so maybe we can’t put everything down to ownership models Totally agree but if I was advocating for fan ownership I'm not sure I'd be citing Barca and Real Madrid as the template tbh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 £500k grants incoming for all Championship clubs. Surely enough to keep the wolves from the door for everyone? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiGi Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, Paco said: £500k grants incoming for all Championship clubs. Surely enough to keep the wolves from the door for everyone? £150k for League One clubs (Falkirk, Partick, Clyde etc). Think we can raise a wee glass to Hearts for gracing us this season, imagine that might have played a part. Was anyone expecting a half million grant? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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