Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

They had Kane Hemmings but instead of playing and developing him they paid a fat, injured Kevin Kyle circa £6k a week and punted Hemmings to Cowdenbeath (a team leagues above Sevco).

Sevco had Liam Kelly on the books. They instead played 35 year old Neil Alexander.

 

I don't think those are the best situations to use to criticise them to be honest. Liam Kelly was 16 years old when Neil Alexander last played for Rangers!

By all means criticise them for bringing in Kyle, and massively overpaying him even by his own quotes. They would have been better playing younger players probably, though to be fair, when they signed Kyle Hemmings was injured for months and only proved himself in senior football with a two month loan spell at Cowdenbeath 6 months later. They did let him go to Cowdenbeath permanently the following summer but by then Kyle was long gone too and so was rubbish like Sandaza. When they let Hemmings leave they had pinned their colours to Nicky Clark having picked him up scoring 41 goals for us at the level they were heading into and Jon Daly who was reasonably effective. It wasn't unreasonable to see both as a better bet than Hemmings at that point.

And Neil Alexander was one of the best goalkeepers in the country and remained so for several seasons more. They didn't got out and buy him, he was already there. I don't think they can reasonably be criticised for playing him. He was undeniably their best keeper.  Alexander left the club at the end of that first season down. They did then go out and sign Cammy Bell rather than giving any young keeper already there a chance in 13/14 but Kelly was still only 17 at that point. Far too early for him. A 24 year old Scott Gallacher was the most senior of their own produced keepers at the time.

[DA Baracus]

8 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I don't think those are the best situations to use to criticise them to be honest. Liam Kelly was 16 years old when Neil Alexander last played for Rangers!

By all means criticise them for bringing in Kyle, and massively overpaying him even by his own quotes. They would have been better playing younger players probably, though to be fair, when they signed Kyle Hemmings was injured for months and only proved himself in senior football with a two month loan spell at Cowdenbeath 6 months later. They did let him go to Cowdenbeath permanently the following summer but by then Kyle was long gone too and so was rubbish like Sandaza. When they let Hemmings leave they had pinned their colours to Nicky Clark having picked him up scoring 41 goals for us at the level they were heading into and Jon Daly who was reasonably effective. It wasn't unreasonable to see both as a better bet than Hemmings at that point.

And Neil Alexander was one of the best goalkeepers in the country and remained so for several seasons more. They didn't got out and buy him, he was already there. I don't think they can reasonably be criticised for playing him. He was undeniably their best keeper.  Alexander left the club at the end of that first season down. They did then go out and sign Cammy Bell rather than giving any young keeper already there a chance in 13/14 but Kelly was still only 17 at that point. Far too early for him. A 24 year old Scott Gallacher was the most senior of their own produced keepers at the time.

Aye, but they didn't give Kelly a single game. They paid more for Daly and Clark but Hemmings as a third striker, be it from the bench or starting cup games or the odd league one, didn't really happen. He got very few games and they didn't really try him. They loaned him out to a team in a higher league.

[Skyline Drifter]

24 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Aye, but they didn't give Kelly a single game. They paid more for Daly and Clark but Hemmings as a third striker, be it from the bench or starting cup games or the odd league one, didn't really happen. He got very few games and they didn't really try him. They loaned him out to a team in a higher league.

They had Andy Little at that time too. He and Daly were internationals and Clark far more proven than Hemmings. I don't think sending him on loan for a few months when he'd been injured for 6 months is unreasonable, and Cowdenbeath being a division above at the time was a result of extreme factors, not size of club! They probably did the right thing for Hemmings to be honest in letting him go out and play regularly.

The discussion here was about the way Rangers used players during 'The Journey'. They were back in the Premiership by the time Kelly was 20. They sent him out to East Fife for the second half of their Championship winning season and then to Livingston for regular Premiership football which almost certainly did him more good than sitting on the bench watching Wes Foderingham play 37 of their 38 games, He did then stagnate for another season watching Foderingham and was behind Jak Alnwick who played a handful of games too before Kelly went to Livingston.

There are I'm sure tens of thousands of reasons to have a go at Rangers over the years but I don't think their treatment of Liam Kelly is really one of them. He wasn't better than Foderingham, certainly not at the time anyway. They let him go out and play and then let him leave for what was presumably a reasonable fee. Other than having Alnwick ahead of him as Foderingham's number 2 for a year in Premiership maybe.

[vikingTON]

Aye they couldn't play their own youth players because they had Andy Little in the team instead.

The only reasons why that haddy became an international was the badge on the jersey of the tribute act he was playing for at the time and the staunch nature of the nation he represented.

Edited June 6, 2020 by vikingTON

[D'Jaffo]

Forgot Andy Little even existed tbh.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

It does seem a little wild that they've had the much vaunted Murray Park for donkey's years, yet still couldn't produce any more than a trickle of players who could hack it in the fourth fucking tier. Worth it though for the hilarity that Sandaza and Kyle brought to proceedings. 

[Trogdor]

17 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

Forgot Andy Little even existed tbh.

I wish I could do the same with Kyle the mere mention of his name here reminds me of the fat bam never winning a high ball and lying on the deck trying to win a foul. 

[HoBNob]

Seen Liam Kelly a few times in the championship this year, hasn't been great tbh. 

[RandomGuy.]

10 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

so was rubbish like Sandaza.

Sandaza was absolutely not "rubbish".

He should be applauded for his trolling of Sevco.

Bangs in hunners of goals for Saints, get a hefty fine for driving the wrong way, while pished, through a one way street in Perth. Resolves that by getting a monumental wage from Rangers to pay it off while simultaneously hindering them by playing poorly. Then gets himself released with a hefty pay off and returns back to Spain with no fine and a much improved bank balance, which had been his plan while with Saints.

Edited June 7, 2020 by RandomGuy.

[eez-eh]

54 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Sandaza was absolutely not "rubbish".

He should be applauded for his trolling of Sevco.

Bangs in hunners of goals for Saints, get a hefty fine for driving the wrong way, while pished, through a one way street in Perth. Resolves that by getting a monumental wage from Rangers to pay it off while simultaneously hindering them by playing poorly. Then gets himself released with a hefty pay off and returns back to Spain with no fine and a much improved bank balance, which had been his plan while with Saints.

Aye, he should be applauded for drink driving.

f**k’s sake.

[Skyline Drifter]

On 02/06/2020 at 08:56, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Feel good story and preview of what a “socially distanced” crowd looks like
 

 

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

[Skyline Drifter]

12 hours ago, virginton said:

Aye they couldn't play their own youth players because they had Andy Little in the team instead.

The only reasons why that haddy became an international was the badge on the jersey of the tribute act he was playing for at the time and the staunch nature of the nation he represented.

Kane Hemmings wasn't one of their own youth players, they bought him. Anyway, we're off the point. People can criticise Rangers all they want for hiring Kyle and Sandaza, even Daly, instead of playing people like Hemmings even though he was long term injured when they signed the first two. The point was criticising them for not playing a 16 year old instead of Neil Alexander is plain daft.

I'd still take Neil Alexander over Liam Kelly incidentally and he's been retired for two years!

[AyrExile]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

Has there been any studies conducted to say 2m is the correct distance for football? Would imagine the aerosol levels would be far higher particularly when the referee is having a shocker 

[stu2910]

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

So 1 in 7, Dens would be looking at a little under 1700.

 

Not seen any suggestion yet on how people would actually get to their seats though. Can the virus be transmitted by people touching the same turnstile? Then there will be a big deference even between stands. I haven’t been at the ends at Dens since I was a kid but there assuming they’re similarly laid out to most modern stands then it should be workable, if a bit awkward. The south enclosure is ideal as you are outside all the way to your seat. The main stand though is full of 120 year old narrow corridors where it’s hard to avoid brushing people as you pass, never mind leaving a gap.

 

Also have to make sure that as you celebrate the 90th minute winner you stay exactly within your allocated space!

[Skyline Drifter]

8 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Has there been any studies conducted to say 2m is the correct distance for football? Would imagine the aerosol levels would be far higher particularly when the referee is having a shocker 

Not that I'm aware of. I think we're months away from having people inside football grounds so it's clearly not a priority. You might have a point.

I just thought it was a useful visual representation of what we're talking about. I think a lot of people assume you can sit 2m away from the next person in a row and think you can probably use every 3rd or 4th seat and forget about the requirement to effectively keep a circle 2m wide right around each body and the massive impact that has on capacity. If 2m isn't reduced then in a all seater ground you are probably looking at circa 10% capacity. It may be less in older stands like the ones at Palmerston, Somerset and Cappielow where the seats and spaces between them are smaller rather than modern ones like Tynecastle. I think we'd probably need to leave two clear rows between people, not one.

And that's before we talk about how you control movement on terraces where I think it's likely authorities would insist on bigger gaps and individually marked spaces as a result.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 minutes ago, stu2910 said:

So 1 in 7, Dens would be looking at a little under 1700.

 

Not seen any suggestion yet on how people would actually get to their seats though. Can the virus be transmitted by people touching the same turnstile? Then there will be a big deference even between stands. I haven’t been at the ends at Dens since I was a kid but there assuming they’re similarly laid out to most modern stands then it should be workable, if a bit awkward. The south enclosure is ideal as you are outside all the way to your seat. The main stand though is full of 120 year old narrow corridors where it’s hard to avoid brushing people as you pass, never mind leaving a gap.

 

Also have to make sure that as you celebrate the 90th minute winner you stay exactly within your allocated space!

It certainly can be transmitted by touching the same turnstile. That was discussed here previously too. I think realistically turnstiles will be unusable for the foreseeable future. If limited crowds are allowed in then it will probably need to be by advance ticket only and entering through an exit gate with some distanced checking / scanning of the ticket. Most modern stands might just about manage to sort out getting to seats, especially if attendees were required to take seats in a set order and not sit in the same seat every week. In older stands like Palmerston's where there are no aisles then I think you'd absolutely have to make people take seats in a designated order allocated as they enter rather than squeezing past others to reach a certain seat. It would be a logistical headache.

[SpoonTon]

30 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Saw this photo on the Hearts thread. It wasn't put there for that reason but I thought it was good as the first physical representation of what we are looking at with potential social distancing in a stand. I know there's a general expectation that the 2m distance will come down, especially outside, but there are a lot of assumptions that there will be no problem fitting Championship crowds in for most of us.

That's a section of 114 seats "filled" with 17 people, and that's because two are kids sitting on a parent's knee. In reality you are looking at 15 people in a space for 114. Some context for people who think it will be no problem to put 2,000 people in places like Palmerston and Somerset Park.

You'd still fit a fair few in the WDE at Cappielow with distancing like that, though. There's a good amount of space at Cappielow to get close to that number - whether it could be organised is a different matter. 

[Homer Thompson]

31 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Not that I'm aware of. I think we're months away from having people inside football grounds so it's clearly not a priority. You might have a point.

I just thought it was a useful visual representation of what we're talking about. I think a lot of people assume you can sit 2m away from the next person in a row and think you can probably use every 3rd or 4th seat and forget about the requirement to effectively keep a circle 2m wide right around each body and the massive impact that has on capacity. If 2m isn't reduced then in a all seater ground you are probably looking at circa 10% capacity. It may be less in older stands like the ones at Palmerston, Somerset and Cappielow where the seats and spaces between them are smaller rather than modern ones like Tynecastle. I think we'd probably need to leave two clear rows between people, not one.

And that's before we talk about how you control movement on terraces where I think it's likely authorities would insist on bigger gaps and individually marked spaces as a result.

It was discussed on Off the Ball yesterday with the expert they have on every week. He did mention 2m but I think only because thats the current guideline. He also said he expected it to be one empty row between fans. He mentioned 20% of capacity as a rough ball park but did say that was dependant on other factors, like how easy it was to get to seats without going indoors

[Skyline Drifter]

10 minutes ago, Mr X said:

It was discussed on Off the Ball yesterday with the expert they have on every week. He did mention 2m but I think only because thats the current guideline. He also said he expected it to be one empty row between fans. He mentioned 20% of capacity as a rough ball park but did say that was dependant on other factors, like how easy it was to get to seats without going indoors

Yeah, I listened to it yesterday and as I said in the first post there's an expectation 2m will reduce as it is (I think) the highest in Europe. I agree 20% is probably more likely by the time crowds are allowed. The point was to give people some idea of what was really meant by a 2m distance. I really don't think a lot of people were appreciating how many seats that would render unusable.

Palmerston is a good example of two very different stands. The BDS Digital Stand is 25 years old with more modern seat sizes, plenty of access aisles, easy to access externally and quite open air. I'm sure we could use it very easily to whatever extent was allowed. As you are well aware, the Gates Power Stand however has internal enclosed access, almost no aisles, seats are close together and so are rows. It's quite a low enclosed roof. I imagine it would require a lot more social distancing than the one opposite . It might be possible to arrange access externally rather than internally using the gates at the front in some way but it's always going to be more enclosed.

[Guest Flash]

3 hours ago, AyrExile said:

Has there been any studies conducted to say 2m is the correct distance for football? Would imagine the aerosol levels would be far higher particularly when the referee is having a shocker 

Aye, most refs are aerosols.

Eta more seriously, the numbers might be increased (ie keeping a 2m or less gap) if fans have to wear face coverings plus groups from the same household could sit together. But how do you cater for that if you have to mark out the terracing - have different sized circles? Will adults from the same household need id to prove their address? I think it is unlikely that crowds will be allowed until the 2m thing has gone. Even if it is 1m, how do you prevent people from moving?

Edited June 7, 2020 by Flash