Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[craigkillie]

1 minute ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Well Belgium did it before UEFA issued their statement so have been left somewhat high and dry having already done so. In the unlikely event that UEFA dont eventually back down I expect Belgiun to have to come up with some solution. The UEFA statement is absolutely why the SPFL stopped short of including the Premiership in their plan.

Belgium have already delayed ratification of their decision until after the next UEFA meeting in a couple of weeks.

[Kobe2010]

4 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

Has anyone definitely gained promotion?

Nobody can,the game has been shut down by a global pandemic.There is no way the leagues can be finished in a fair and sporting manner through no fault of any club or governing body.Its fans using mathematic probablility to hopefully screw up a rival that makes you laugh

[craigkillie]

6 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I dont actually think thats the issue. The issue is UEFA have so far told members they cant do it with their top divisions. If UEFA retract that objection the top division will be ended too. 

But these two things are interlinked. The reason UEFA have told clubs to do it is that they think it is still feasible to play on.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Neither option is fair.

You have a choice between Hearts, Partick & Stranraer feeling hard done by through being relegated without 36 games being played, or Celtic, Dundee United, Raith and Cove being hard done by through being denied the title/promotion

There is no suggestion on anybody's table that denies Celtic the title. The Nelms plan is NOT a null and void, just that they wont be promoted or relegated.

[rb123!]

So why should ICT get promoted under possible reconstruction and not give Ayr United a chance?

I don't believe there will be any reconstruction and even if there is a reconstruction proposal, all of the 42 clubs will have to vote on that proposal aswell so we can easily say no in that vote if we so wished

[Ad Lib]

Just now, Dunning1874 said:

Neither option is fair.

You have a choice between Hearts, Partick & Stranraer feeling hard done by through being relegated without 36 games being played, or Celtic, Dundee United, Raith and Cove being hard done by through being denied the title/promotion, which in three of those cases were already foregone conclusions. Ayr and every other club in playoff positions have no self-interest to consider in this as the season clearly isn't being completed and they won't be promoted in either scenario, so the idea that a side sitting in a playoff spot supporting one is 'rolling over' while the other is standing up for truth and justice is evidently ridiculous.

Every club has a choice between an option which is unfair on teams who've had good seasons or an option which is unfair on teams who've had bad seasons. They can f**k over Hearts or f**k over Dundee United with one of them getting fucked being unavoidable, same for Partick v Raith, same for Stranraer v Cove.

Dundee fans claiming they're motivated by fairness in universally coming down on the side of bottom placed clubs in that decision are fooling no one.

Except it's not as clear-cut a dichotomy as that for several reasons.

(a) the current proposal also punishes teams that have had good seasons (those in the promotion play-off spots) and unduly benefits teams that have had bad seasons (those in or just outside the relegation play-off spots). It's not as clear-cut as the two extremities of each league.

(b) there are options that ameliorate the consequences of the SPFL's preferred proposal, but they are artificially splitting the decision-making process to ensure the most unfair version of its solution becomes the default and that any alternative becomes impossible to agree to.

(c) the SPFL has invited this unfairness on itself by including a vague commitment to league reconstruction as part of its motion. It should either be honest and say this is not part of the proposal, or they should include the specifics of the league reconstruction proposal with the proposal to end the season. They shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it.

[johnnydun]

8 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Stop the press mate, in case you didnt notice we are in the middle of World War Z. We are not playing any playoffs this season. 

So is it fair that 1 team in the playoffs gets a chance at promotion, when the other 2 don't?

8 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

Our chairman was asked this very question last night and made it clear that there is absolutely no chance it would be supported.

 

A club is unlikely propose something that they know will never pass. Unless your Rangers of course but everyone knows that anything they say is for one purpose only.

So because he said there is no chance it must be true?

8 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

No they don't. No more football will be played this season. Either United will be promoted, or United and The Caley will be promoted. 

And this is fair how? Nothing was mathematically certain.

3 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Neither option is fair.

You have a choice between Hearts, Partick & Stranraer feeling hard done by through being relegated without 36 games being played, or Celtic, Dundee United, Raith and Cove being hard done by through being denied the title/promotion, which in three of those cases were already foregone conclusions. Ayr and every other club in playoff positions have no self-interest to consider in this as the season clearly isn't being completed and they won't be promoted in either scenario, so the idea that a side sitting in a playoff spot supporting one is 'rolling over' while the other is standing up for truth and justice is evidently ridiculous.

Every club has a choice between an option which is unfair on teams who've had good seasons or an option which is unfair on teams who've had bad seasons. They can f**k over Hearts or f**k over Dundee United with one of them getting fucked being unavoidable, same for Partick v Raith, same for Stranraer v Cove.

Dundee fans claiming they're motivated by fairness in universally coming down on the side of bottom placed clubs in that decision are fooling no one.

So why should teams gain or be punished when nothing is mathematically certain?

[rb123!]

Quote where he said this, please. 

The Courier article says your decision is based on the feeling you'd get promoted through the play offs

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

But these two things are interlinked. The reason UEFA have told clubs to do it is that they think it is still feasible to play on.

I dont think they seriously do. They know what the realistic advice is same as everyone else. They just have to find a negotiated solution to the commercial / tv deals in place for their own competitions and the more affluent Leagues before they will agree to it.

[Ad Lib]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The argument is that leagues should carry on playing if the member clubs think it is feasible. The Premiership clubs still do, we'll see what the lower league clubs think when they vote on it today.

That's even before you think about the fact that the Premiership clubs are bound by UEFA's position on a way that lower leagues are not. Calling the Premiership right now could have implications on our standing with UEFA, calling the lower leagues would not.

My position is that I think they should give it a bit longer, but the points per game method is by some distance the fairest way to resolve things if we can't get playing again in time.

Again, this is an incomplete answer to the issue.

The question of whether the league should carry on is not the full answer if you cannot agree what is the fairest way to end it.

And what is the fairest way to end it cannot be answered solely by adopting a policy of ranking teams based on a new and different criteria (even if it is the least unfair of the practical options). The answer has to include a clear guarantee of what the consequences are of clubs finishing in the relevant positions according to that criteria.

Either:

(a) withdraw the offer to consider league reconstruction completely and ask Clubs to own up and vote on what this proposal really is; or

(b) say explicitly what league reconstruction will be done to mitigate the consequences of your unfair but unavoidable method of concluding the season prematurely.

[johnnydun]

5 minutes ago, Kobe2010 said:

Nobody can,the game has been shut down by a global pandemic.There is no way the leagues can be finished in a fair and sporting manner through no fault of any club or governing body.Its fans using mathematic probablility to hopefully screw up a rival that makes you laugh

Exactly, Nobody can, so why award it?

[craigkillie]

3 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

Again, this is an incomplete answer to the issue.

The question of whether the league should carry on is not the full answer if you cannot agree what is the fairest way to end it.

And what is the fairest way to end it cannot be answered solely by adopting a policy of ranking teams based on a new and different criteria (even if it is the least unfair of the practical options). The answer has to include a clear guarantee of what the consequences are of clubs finishing in the relevant positions according to that criteria.

Either:

(a) withdraw the offer to consider league reconstruction completely and ask Clubs to own up and vote on what this proposal really is; or

(b) say explicitly what league reconstruction will be done to mitigate the consequences of your unfair but unavoidable method of concluding the season prematurely.

If the league vote on it then whether or not you think it is fair is irrelevant, they have followed the regulations properly and the decision will be democratic and final.

[Skyline Drifter]

3 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

So is it fair that 1 team in the playoffs gets a chance at promotion, when the other 2 don't?

Under this proposal nobody is getting playoffs. There are no playoffs. And nothing you do or dont vote for will see Dundee 2nd so it makes no odds. No amount of whataboutery and toy throwing will change that.

We arent playing on, you wont catch Inverness. There may or may not be reconstruction but unless its an unlikely 16 team league its not including you either way. Get over it. 

Even Ad Lib who has thrown his toys so far out of the pram they have reached the next town accepts we arent playing any more games or playoffs. All the arguing is about how best to end it.

[johnnydun]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Under this proposal nobody is getting playoffs. There are no playoffs. And nothing you do or dont vote for will see Dundee 2nd so it makes no odds. No amount of whataboutery and toy throwing will change that.

We arent playing on, you wont catch Inverness. There may or may not be reconstruction but unless its an unlikely 16 team league its not including you either way. Get over it. 

Even Ad Lib who has thrown his toys so far out of the pram they have reached the next town accepts we arent playing any more games or playoffs. All the arguing is about how best to end it.

You're right, I should just get over it and shut up.

It must be easy to say that supporting a team that clearly gains from this eh?

[D'Jaffo]

You're right, I should just get over it and shut up.
It must be easy to say that supporting a team that clearly gains from this eh?

Fine I’ll say it as my team isn’t gaining any more than yours would.

Under this proposal nobody is getting playoffs. There are no playoffs. And nothing you do or dont vote for will see Dundee 2nd so it makes no odds. No amount of whataboutery and toy throwing will change that.
We arent playing on, you wont catch Inverness. There may or may not be reconstruction but unless its an unlikely 16 team league its not including you either way. Get over it. 
Even Ad Lib who has thrown his toys so far out of the pram they have reached the next town accepts we arent playing any more games or playoffs. All the arguing is about how best to end it.

[johnnydun]

1 minute ago, D'Jaffo said:

Fine I’ll say it as my team isn’t gaining any more than yours would.

Under this proposal nobody is getting playoffs. There are no playoffs. And nothing you do or dont vote for will see Dundee 2nd so it makes no odds. No amount of whataboutery and toy throwing will change that.
We arent playing on, you wont catch Inverness. There may or may not be reconstruction but unless its an unlikely 16 team league its not including you either way. Get over it. 
Even Ad Lib who has thrown his toys so far out of the pram they have reached the next town accepts we arent playing any more games or playoffs. All the arguing is about how best to end it.

You're right, I should just get over it and shut up.
It must be easy to say that supporting a team that clearly roll over and do as their told.

[Kobe2010]

6 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

Exactly, Nobody can, so why award it?

Because one way or another this season has to end. I have no idea of the best way to conclude it as none seem sportingly fair but you just want United to miss out for a laugh.

[D'Jaffo]

You're right, I should just get over it and shut up.

Good lad, we got there in the end.

[johnnydun]

Just now, D'Jaffo said:

Good lad, we got there in the end.

f**k off, look at me, know it all c**t. 

[johnnydun]

1 minute ago, Kobe2010 said:

Because one way or another this season has to end. I have no idea of the best way to conclude it as none seem sportingly fair but you just want United to miss out for a laugh.

Clearly not been reading my posts.