Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship

[D'Jaffo]

So why should ICT get promoted under possible reconstruction and not give Ayr United a chance?

In order for Ayr to go up you’d have to reconstruct to a 16 team top flight which will never be supported by top flight clubs.

[Kobe2010]

5 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

Because it's fairer than giving teams undeserved promotion or relegation.

So its fairer to stick them where they are despite them wiping the floor in their respective leagues,ok then.

[johnnydun]

Just now, D'Jaffo said:

In order for Ayr to go up you’d have to reconstruct to a 16 team top flight which will never be supported by top flight clubs.

Why not put that proposal forward then? Or like I said, just roll over.

[TheScarf]

If there is reconstruction then The Caley will be promoted given they're the 2nd best team in the league and currently occupy 2nd in the league. 

That's why they'd get promoted over Ayr.  At the moment the play offs don't exist. 

[johnnydun]

Just now, TheScarf said:

If there is reconstruction then The Caley will be promoted given they're the 2nd best team in the league and currently occupy 2nd in the league. 

That's why they'd get promoted over Ayr.  At the moment the play offs don't exist. 

Yes they do.

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

As invergowrie says, the argument isn't about whether we should play out the season or whether it should be null and voided. Everyone knows they are a non-starter.

The argument is about

(a) why are you treating the Premier League differently given we know the above is the case;

(b) why is the proposal to end the season one which adopts a new and unfair criteria for placing clubs; and

(c) why does the proposal make no concrete attempts to mitigate the consequences of that unfairness if a fairer method of ranking is not possible.

There is also a fourth issue which is that the rules about how this season should be determined shouldn't be voted on or changed before we know what the rules will be for next season's competitions.

A proposal that fails to mitigate the unearned advantages of teams which did not mathematically win promotion outright, and which fails to mitigate the unearned punishment for some teams which did not mathematically earn relegation outright is not a fair proposal, and therefore should not be agreed to.

The Dundee proposal, though not viable in itself, highlights part of the essence of that unfairness and is clearly the basis for further discussion.

The Premiership is the only one which has any (slim) chance of being played out at any time soon, since behind closed doors would potentially be profitable for them unlike the lower league clubs. And anyway, the change being voted through today would apply to the Premiership too, it's just that it would be delayed until it was proven to be unreasonable to finish the season.

[Skyline Drifter]

15 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

 

You are essentially voting to end any chance of a play off.

Stop the press mate, in case you didnt notice we are in the middle of World War Z. We are not playing any playoffs this season. 

[D'Jaffo]

Why not put that proposal forward then? Or like I said, just roll over.

Our chairman was asked this very question last night and made it clear that there is absolutely no chance it would be supported.

 

A club is unlikely propose something that they know will never pass. Unless your Rangers of course but everyone knows that anything they say is for one purpose only.

[johnnydun]

3 minutes ago, Kobe2010 said:

So its fairer to stick them where they are despite them wiping the floor in their respective leagues,ok then.

Has anyone definitely gained promotion?

[TheScarf]

1 minute ago, johnnydun said:

Yes they do.

No they don't. No more football will be played this season. Either United will be promoted, or United and The Caley will be promoted. 

[Skyline Drifter]

14 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

As is nulling and voiding the season, which Dundee fans are gushing over John Nelms for suggesting. Why aren't you accusing him of rolling over?

He hasnt suggested that, and its been made clear to clubs that is not an option. He is proposing the same as the League are, just with no promotion and relegation.

[Ad Lib]

4 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The Premiership is the only one which has any (slim) chance of being played out at any time soon, since behind closed doors would potentially be profitable for them unlike the lower league clubs. And anyway, the change being voted through today would apply to the Premiership too, it's just that it would be delayed until it was proven to be unreasonable to finish the season.

So the argument is that you should only give teams a chance to overhaul the points average of teams above them if there's the possibility there's a financial advantage for the league you're in from doing so?

That doesn't sound very consistent with sporting integrity.

The point is not that there are not reasons; it's that the reasons are grubby and unfair.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Ad Lib

[Skyline Drifter]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The Premiership is the only one which has any (slim) chance of being played out at any time soon, since behind closed doors would potentially be profitable for them unlike the lower league clubs. And anyway, the change being voted through today would apply to the Premiership too, it's just that it would be delayed until it was proven to be unreasonable to finish the season.

I dont actually think thats the issue. The issue is UEFA have so far told members they cant do it with their top divisions. If UEFA retract that objection the top division will be ended too. 

[Derry Alli]

29 minutes ago, rb123! said:

Still don't see why your chairman seems to think that it's a certainty you'd win the play offs

Quote where he said this, please. 

[Dunning1874]

19 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

Because it's fairer than giving teams undeserved promotion or relegation.

Neither option is fair.

You have a choice between Hearts, Partick & Stranraer feeling hard done by through being relegated without 36 games being played, or Celtic, Dundee United, Raith and Cove being hard done by through being denied the title/promotion, which in three of those cases were already foregone conclusions. Ayr and every other club in playoff positions have no self-interest to consider in this as the season clearly isn't being completed and they won't be promoted in either scenario barring a rushed reconstruction, so the idea that a side sitting in a playoff spot supporting one is 'rolling over' while the other is standing up for truth and justice is evidently ridiculous.

Every club has a choice between an option which is unfair on teams who've had good seasons or an option which is unfair on teams who've had bad seasons. They can f**k over Hearts or f**k over Dundee United with one of them getting fucked being unavoidable, same for Partick v Raith, same for Stranraer v Cove.

Dundee fans claiming they're motivated by fairness in universally coming down on the side of bottom placed clubs in that decision are fooling no one.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Dunning1874

[D'Jaffo]

I dont actually think thats the issue. The issue is UEFA have so far told members they cant do it with their top divisions. If UEFA retract that objection the top division will be ended too. 

Is Belgium not a member then? Or are they just ignoring UEFA?

[Distant Doonhamer]

Our chairman was asked this very question last night and made it clear that there is absolutely no chance it would be supported.
 
A club is unlikely propose something that they know will never pass. Unless your Rangers of course but everyone knows that anything they say is for one purpose only.

I think you’ll find the statement released by Rangers this very morning confirms they are acting in the interest of ALL Scottish clubs and in the interests of the wider Scottish game.
Utterly laughable of course.

[Skyline Drifter]

5 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

Is Belgium not a member then? Or are they just ignoring UEFA?

Well Belgium did it before UEFA issued their statement so have been left somewhat high and dry having already done so. In the unlikely event that UEFA dont eventually back down I expect Belgium to have to come up with some solution. The UEFA statement is absolutely why the SPFL stopped short of including the Premiership in their plan.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Skyline Drifter

[rb123!]

What we should do is follow the Ayr United model and just roll over.

The thing is if you vote against it there has been no plan B proposal put forward which means that if it doesn't get voted through nobody knows what's going to happen now.

Apart from even more weeks will be spent fannying about to then have another vote where the spfl will get their way.

The SPFL will get there way as the always do you do realise that, if it doesn't pass today they'll just spend the next weeks blackmailing the likes of Hearts, Rangers, Dundee and Partick with threats about their financial futures if they don't vote yes

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

So the argument is that you should only give teams a chance to overhaul the points average of teams above them if there's the possibility there's a financial advantage for the league you're in from doing so?

That doesn't sound very consistent with sporting integrity.

The point is not that there are not reasons; it's that the reasons are grubby and unfair.

The argument is that leagues should carry on playing if the member clubs think it is feasible. The Premiership clubs still do, we'll see what the lower league clubs think when they vote on it today.

That's even before you think about the fact that the Premiership clubs are bound by UEFA's position on a way that lower leagues are not. Calling the Premiership right now could have implications on our standing with UEFA, calling the lower leagues would not.

My position is that I think they should give it a bit longer, but the points per game method is by some distance the fairest way to resolve things if we can't get playing again in time.