Season over

[John S]

'Points won per match' Is that a posh way of saying the points on the board now?

[TheLad]

'Points won per match' Is that a posh way of saying the points on the board now?

No, it avoids the unfairness of that.
Divide your points by games played

Team A 20 games played 48 points = 2.4
Team B 14 games played 38 points = 2.71

Team B wins, even though they currently have less points.

[John S]

Cheers

No, it avoids the unfairness of that.
Divide your points by games played

Team A 20 games played 48 points = 2.4
Team B 14 games played 38 points = 2.71

Team B wins, even though they currently have less points.

[gaz5]

No, it avoids the unfairness of that.
Divide your points by games played

Team A 20 games played 48 points = 2.4
Team B 14 games played 38 points = 2.71

Team B wins, even though they currently have less points.

Not any fairer at non league level then pulling names out of a hat, given the natural imbalance in fixtures and matches played due to games off etc.

In the top leagues with a balanced fixture list (play each team roughly the same number of times and roughly the same number of home and away games and roughly the same number of games) it's more applicable, but at EoS level where the fixtures have nowhere near that sort of balance then points per game is a non starter for me.

There are plenty obvious examples of that over the 2 conferences (Leith have 9 games to play but only 2 at home; Leith, LTHV and Dunipace have all played each other twice but Kinnoull who would benefit on PPG have 4 games still to play against the current top 3 (among others); Dunipace haven't played Tynecastle or Inverkeithing yet from conference B where the others have etc.)

Think as we've discussed at length on here the only 2 fair options are 1. Finish the season or 2. Void the season.

Personally, I'd rather 1. but it looks like that's not going to be possible.

Declaring anything based on current points/points per game/standings will adversely impact too many clubs whatever way you cut it with LTHV, Leith, Dunipace, Kinnoull, Oakley, Inverkeithing and Glenrothes still in the hunt for two promotion places and none of them assured of those with the remaining fixtures.

Only Tynecastle are sure to go up. Not mathematically, but think everyone would agree they have had an outstanding season and were going up as conference B winners.

[Black & Red Socks]

No, it avoids the unfairness of that. Divide your points by games played Team A 20 games played 48 points = 2.4Team B 14 games played 38 points = 2.71 Team B wins, even though they currently have less points. 

There’s still an enormous unfairness to that too. It’s entirely possible Team B have played a majority of their games against teams towards the bottom half of the league with, potentially, more difficult games still to come while Team A may have played the majority of their games against teams towards the top half of the league with ‘easier’ games to come, giving Team B an unfair advantage using this method.

 

There is no ideal solution that will satisfy all but with so many games still to play in the EoSFL I think it’s best to null and void the season and start over again in 20/21, particularly if the team ‘finishing’ in the most important position of them all - the Lowland League top spot - is denied a shot at promotion to SPFL2 due to the closed shop nature of the decision taken by the SPFL yesterday.

Edit: I’d posted the above before gaz5’s almost identical point popped up on my timeline.

[Dev]

13 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

There’s still an enormous unfairness to that too. It’s entirely possible Team B have played a majority of their games against teams towards the bottom half of the league with, potentially, more difficult games still to come while Team A may have played the majority of their games against teams towards the top half of the league with ‘easier’ games to come, giving Team B an unfair advantage using this method.

There is no ideal solution that will satisfy all but with so many games still to play in the EoSFL I think it’s best to null and void the season and start over again in 20/21, particularly if the team ‘finishing’ in the most important position of them all - the Lowland League top spot - is denied a shot at promotion to SPFL2 due to the closed shop nature of the decision taken by the SPFL yesterday.

There is a slightly better way, in my view, to figure out a fair PPG situation. I've done this as an example for the West Juniors on the Juniors What is the Future Thread. I just show the top division from there below. This takes into account that clubs Home and Away records vary in terms of the numbers of matches played and the strength of the opposition played. Figure out the PPG for the Home matches per club and the Away matches per club then total them - see end column. A League Seeding can also be created, if desired - thinking of the conferences situation with three promotion places - two champions and, in effect, the "best runner-up". This isn't perfect but is there a fairer way to sort this out, maybe?:

Season 2019/20		Premiership	Overall			Home			Away			PPG	PPG		PPG
Seeding	Lg Table Pos.	(In PPG Pos.)	P	PTS		P	PTS		P	PTS		Home	Away		Total
1	3	Auchinleck Talbot	16	41		10	28		6	13		2.80	2.16		4.96
2	1	Kilwinning Rangers	25	53		12	27		13	26		2.25	2.00		4.25
3	2	Pollok	22	42		11	22		11	20		2.00	1.81		3.81
4	6	Glenafton Athletic	20	36		11	25		9	11		2.27	1.22		3.49
5	4	Irvine Meadow XI	22	38		10	19		12	19		1.90	1.58		3.48
6	7	Beith Juniors	21	34		10	16		11	18		1.60	1.63		3.23
7	12	Hurlford United	19	29		10	20		9	9		2.00	1.00		3.00
8	8	Kilbirnie Ladeside	24	33		12	25		12	8		2.08	0.66		2.74
9	5	Clydebank	28	37		15	20		13	17		1.33	1.300		2.63
10	9	Cumnock Juniors	25	32		12	19		13	13		1.58	1.00		2.58
11	10	Rossvale	25	32		13	15		12	17		1.15	1.41		2.56
12	11	Largs Thistle	25	31		14	24		11	7		1.71	0.63		2.34
13	14	Benburb	20	19		10	12		10	7		1.20	0.70		1.90
17	13	Troon	24	22		13	19		11	3		1.46	0.27		1.73
18	15	Rutherglen Glencairn	17	12		6	7		11	5		1.16	0.45		1.61
19	16	Kirkintilloch Rob Roy	17	6		6	0		11	6		0.00	0.54		0.54

[Cameron Wilson]

Here's an off the all idea to solve this. It's complicated but it might just work.

Essentially use next seasons games to double up to also settle the current season's tables, and arrange the fixtures in such a way that relegation and promotion for this season can de decided as quickly as possible, before fixtures between teams possibly not in the same division next year could take place.

Could cancel or delay next seasons cups to create the necessary time.

Declare 2019/20 winner as soon as it's mathematically sealed, the champs have a celebration in the middle of next season which would double as a "we all beat the pandemic" feel good moment.

All outstanding games then take care of themselves by next seasons fixtures doubling up for this seasons where relevant. For teams no longer in the same division, they play outstanding games when cups would have taken place. But these games could take place anytime since promotion and relegation would have been dealt with already and these would just be for season 19/20 table completeness.

Would be bit strange, but these are strange times. And it might just preserve sporting integrity.

Any thoughts on this idea lads? Anyone better at small details than me care to so some calculations, or rip this theory apart? Of course all depends on when next season may start.

[BMan]

No [emoji23]

[Guest]

Whilst I like your enthusiasm and desire to find champions for this season, I don't get the rush to find a champion.

The season is over, the outcomes null and void, which under the circumstances is completely understandable.

Next season should just be a normal season from start to finish. Let teams gather themselves and make a real go of things for next season without worrying about the season that never was.

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Whilst I like your enthusiasm and desire to find champions for this season, I don't get the rush to find a champion.

The season is over, the outcomes null and void, which under the circumstances is completely understandable.

Next season should just be a normal season from start to finish. Let teams gather themselves and make a real go of things for next season without worrying about the season that never was.

Would agree but Tynecastle 20 points clear were an absolute shoe in for promotion bound to feel hard done by.

 

[gaz5]

Would agree but Tynecastle 20 points clear were an absolute shoe in for promotion bound to feel hard done by.
 

Sure they will, but unfortunately the other 7 sides in contention for the 2 other promotion places will all have been optimistic about joining them and there's no way to split any of them out.

Obviously I feel for Tynecastle and Callum as I know how much work goes into it, but that's the same for players and managers of all the club's I despite then being nearly there, they weren't quite. I think reconstruction is likely to be the only thing to help them and hopefully that would encompass all the clubs chasing promotion.

It's shite, absolutely no doubt, and we are gutted as well (given we were still in the hunt and had made it to the semi final of the South with two massive results for the club), but as disappointing as it is, the world around us and people being safe is most important.

[Guest]

Would agree but Tynecastle 20 points clear were an absolute shoe in for promotion bound to feel hard done by.
 

They won't be the only ones, as stated by gaz5 we were in two semi finals and challenging for a league.....the best end to a season for pretty much 30 odd years for the club.....but it wasn't to be.

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

Sure they will, but unfortunately the other 7 sides in contention for the 2 other promotion places will all have been optimistic about joining them and there's no way to split any of them out.

Obviously I feel for Tynecastle and Callum as I know how much work goes into it, but that's the same for players and managers of all the club's I despite then being nearly there, they weren't quite. I think reconstruction is likely to be the only thing to help them and hopefully that would encompass all the clubs chasing promotion.

It's shite, absolutely no doubt, and we are gutted as well (given we were still in the hunt and had made it to the semi final of the South with two massive results for the club), but as disappointing as it is, the world around us and people being safe is most important.

Great post

[magoo]

On 10/04/2020 at 10:14, gaz5 said:

Not any fairer at non league level then pulling names out of a hat, given the natural imbalance in fixtures and matches played due to games off etc.

In the top leagues with a balanced fixture list (play each team roughly the same number of times and roughly the same number of home and away games and roughly the same number of games) it's more applicable, but at EoS level where the fixtures have nowhere near that sort of balance then points per game is a non starter for me.

There are plenty obvious examples of that over the 2 conferences (Leith have 9 games to play but only 2 at home; Leith, LTHV and Dunipace have all played each other twice but Kinnoull who would benefit on PPG have 4 games still to play against the current top 3 (among others); Dunipace haven't played Tynecastle or Inverkeithing yet from conference B where the others have etc.)

Think as we've discussed at length on here the only 2 fair options are 1. Finish the season or 2. Void the season.

Personally, I'd rather 1. but it looks like that's not going to be possible.

Declaring anything based on current points/points per game/standings will adversely impact too many clubs whatever way you cut it with LTHV, Leith, Dunipace, Kinnoull, Oakley, Inverkeithing and Glenrothes still in the hunt for two promotion places and none of them assured of those with the remaining fixtures.

Only Tynecastle are sure to go up. Not mathematically, but think everyone would agree they have had an outstanding season and were going up as conference B winners.

Just had a look at whitehills record.think we would go down with a points game outcome... im all for poor sides getting what they deserve and im not hiding behind the fact we have been poor but we have played 7 home games and 11 away games and at the moment we still have a little chink of light...obviously difficult times for the world but we could be down 2 season running by ultimately off feild matters.....

[Deanburn Dave]

The SPFL meet with the Lowland League on Monday with restructuring possibly on the table. I predict it will be a promise of "jam tomorrow" to placate the lower leagues.

[gaz5]

First off, yes, I'm bored. [emoji846]

 

Been thinking about potential solutions for the EoS (including Lowland Playoff) that could:

 

1) Be workable for 20/21

2) Get us the structure voted for in 21/22 (T6, T7, T8)

3) Leave no-one disadvantaged on this season's performance

4) Leave no one disadvantaged for next season

 

Thought I'd fire the best option I'd come up with on here for comment, and in case anyone was looking in for ideas [emoji1787].

 

20/21 EoS Premier:

 

Bo'ness promoted to Lowland (additional place(s) for one season if required in Lowland, with additional relegation spot to accommodate Bo'ness and Threave/South Licenced Champion) = 15 clubs remain.

 

Promote all 6 teams from the conference's still realistically fighting it out for promotion (LTHV, Leith, Dunipace, Kinnoull, Tynecastle, Inverkeithing) = 21 clubs

 

Each team plays each other once, home or away = 20 games

 

League splits into top 10 & bottom 11 where each section plays each other once more for 10/11 games (30/31 total, so able to meet playoffs date at standard 30 game season)

 

Bottom 5 relegated (one season only) into single league championship at T7 for season after. - if no EoS Lowland Relegation. Bottom 6 if there is a Lowland EoS relegation to balance at 16.

 

20/21 EoS First

 

Remaining 18 teams joined by 10 new teams in two 14 team conferences.

 

Play each team in your conference home and away (same as 19/20) for 26 games.

 

Conference winners and second place playoff winner promoted (3 total).

 

Remaining top 7 teams not promoted (11) joined by 5 relegated clubs to form 16 team championship for 21/22.

 

If Lowland Relegation to EoS occurs, run with 17 teams at T7 with an extra relegation spot for a single season.

 

Bottom 7's plus any new clubs into Tier 8 for 21/22 as planned.

 

Reasoning:

 

- No clubs relegated this season who could have got out of it (no one disadvantaged)

- All clubs who could have realistically been promoted go up and have to fight to stay there (no one disadvantaged)

- None of the new teams disadvantaged as still come in at the same level

- Both Tiers still get a doable number of league games to sort things out on the park for the season after

- Season after we still get to the planned structure at T6 (16), T7 (16), T8 (14+)

- No one (unless I'm missing something) is disadvantaged anywhere

 

I realise 5 (potentially 6) relegation spots is a lot and in normal times no one would suggest it, but these are not normal times so could be more palatable for a single season to sort out a specific problem.

 

Anyway, critique away. [emoji846]

 

 

 

 

[bigwullieac]

LL have ended season and awarded Kelty the trophy, considering how close things were between Kelty and Bonnyrigg, I would suggest that this should set a precedent for the EOS leagues. No reason now why teams at top shouldn't be awarded title like in every other Scottish league (if Dundee FC stop blocking the SPFL motion that is)

[bigwullieac]

Simplest solution to the playoff issue at this stage is to.relegate both VoL and Dalbeattie with one going EoS and the other SoS that is if the SoSs decided champion is a licensee

[AlanCamelonfan]

6 minutes ago, bigwullieac said:

Simplest solution to the playoff issue at this stage is to.relegate both VoL and Dalbeattie with one going EoS and the other SoS that is if the SoSs decided champion is a licensee

They have already said no relegation

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

They have already said no relegation

"Furthermore, the board would like to make it clear that it feels that no member club should be disadvantaged by the current health crisis we face, and as such there will be no relegation from the SLFL in season 2019/20. We are aware of the implications for our fellow pyramid leagues, the EoSFL and SoSFL, and will announce contingency plans to cover this in due course."

Could well mean a single season of 17 or 18 depending on how the SoSFL decide on a champion.