Marten Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Just now, Steven W said: Who are the two promoted sides from the conferences? Tynecastle & LTHV, Inverkeithing as well if Bo'ness get promoted to the LL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Marten said: Tynecastle & LTHV, Inverkeithing as well if Bo'ness get promoted to the LL. What about Kinnoull FC? Better PPG than Inverkeithing. Edited April 24, 2020 by Pyramidic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Pub League Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 So 4 down from the Premier league, at least, whenever the next season is played. I read it as only Champions of the conferences will be promoted next time out, which will be a pisser if one team runs away with their division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: What about Kinnoull FC? Better PPG than Inverkeithing. IHS = 2.25ppg Kinnoull = 2.05ppg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allnitelong Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 38 minutes ago, vitus said: Sensible decision that i'm sure the vast vast majority of sensible supporters coaches , committees and players will agree with. Totally agree mate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: Edited April 24, 2020 by GordonS 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunfermline Jag Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, GordonS said: Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: On the face of it that seems fairer but what aout the standard of opponent played so far? If a team has played more games against better opposition already that depresses their overall points per game so far. You are then applying that figure to future games when, in fact, they would have done better in those games because of the relatively weaker nature of the opposition. All that is before you take account of injuries to key players, teams having more games in a shorter time and all the other variables that affect PPG at various points in the season. In truth, short of completing the current season - and that is not going to happen - there is NO truly fair way to end it and any method you choose will disadvantage some teams. At least simple PPG is transparent and easy to understand which I think makes it easier for those clubs who are disadvantaged to accept. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, GordonS said: Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: The went with an approach that had the 1st placed teams in the standings and a 2nd placed team into promotion consideration instead of a method that had a team that jumped from 6th to champions. I can see why they went the way they did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Tynecastle celebrate Quote Tynecastle FC - Media View news archive | View video archive 1st Team are awarded East of Scotland Conference title 24/Apr/2020 The East of Scotland League have today conformed that after a vote undertaken by member clubs the season has been concluded and that Tynecastle F C are awarded the Conference B championship. Manager Calum Elliot has said, "Firstly, I would like to say a huge congratulations to everyone involved within Tynecastle Football Club; the volunteers,the committee,the coaches,the loyal people who have to watch us throughout the season and of course the players. It’s an outstanding achievement and everyone has played their part in becoming conference B champions. "Of course we would have loved to have finished the season in style and enjoyed that moment in the changing room after the boys reaped the rewards for a years hard work. However, it wasn’t to be, but as the leader of the group I’m extremely proud of the teams achievements. I have had to get after them a few times this season but in all honesty the standards they have set in training and games have made my job easy. "The players have had a phenomenal season. Breaking a lot of club and league records in the process. 23 games played, 21 wins, 2 draws and 125 scored. They have been absolutely relentless in their pursuit of victories and a joy to watch throughout . An unforgiving league campaign which has now ended undefeated. We know the challenge that now awaits us in the premier league - it’s one we are now ready for. We will approach it as a group with real hard work and determination as we continue to become the best team we can be. Hopefully it won’t be long until the boys are on the training pitch, ready to push themselves to the limits again. Edited April 24, 2020 by Pyramidic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanburn Dave Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 A "seriously massive" rant you had there. Calm Doon it's only Fitbaw. Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 42 minutes ago, GordonS said: Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: The same argument could be cut a number of different ways for the other clubs who were still in with a shout of promotion. Clubs have voted in favour, as expected, which has allowed overall champions to be decided. Those of us who disagree with the process and the proposal just have to accept the decision, at least the clubs decided on the outcome. Well done to tynecaslte in particular and callum, the most consistent team all season over both conferences. I wish them well next season in the Premier league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allnitelong Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 59 minutes ago, GordonS said: Got to say, there's a seriously massive problem with using flat PPG here. LTHV have 54 points from 24 games. That's 2.25ppg and the highest in Conf A, so they're up. But... Kinnoull have 35 points from 17 games, for a PPG of 2.06. They've played 9 home games and 8 away games while LTHV have played 14 home and 10 away games. Kinnoull's home PPG is 2.67 and their away PPG is 1.75. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 75.08 points. LTHV's home PPG is 2.57 and their away PPG is 1.8. To project that over the season you multiply both of those by 17, the number of home or away games, then add them together, and they would be projected to end the season on 74.31 points. In my opinion Kinnoull are being unfairly treated because LTHV have played more home games. If you look at home and away games separately, then Kinnoull have the best record in Conf A. Using this approach Kinnoull win Conf A, Tynecastle win Conf B, and the best runner-up is IHS. LTHV only have the 4th best record. ETA table: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allnitelong Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Your calculations are correct, however with that your assuming that Kinnoul, Leith et al will win every game they play which is impossible so therefore your calcs are quite incorrect 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 58 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: The went with an approach that had the 1st placed teams in the standings and a 2nd placed team into promotion consideration instead of a method that had a team that jumped from 6th to champions. I can see why they went the way they did. When some clubs have played only 17 games and others have played 25, and when some have played only 9 home games and others 14, that doesn't make any sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, Deanburn Dave said: A "seriously massive" rant you had there. Calm Doon it's only Fitbaw. You're the only one ranting here. But I'm sure you'd have been totally coolio if it had been your team screwed for promotion because they had played a lower proportion of home games. Cool beans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, GordonS said: When some clubs have played only 17 games and others have played 25, and when some have played only 9 home games and others 14, that doesn't make any sense. Whilst I agree with you Gordon, there are many reasons to suggest the ppg total doesn't work, particularly in a conference system, the clubs have spoken. You will drive yourself daft. It isn't worth it. Move on and focus on when we open back up, which is hopefully before 2021. (I say this finding it hard to do so myself aswell) Edited April 24, 2020 by Guest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 16 minutes ago, Allnitelong said: Your calculations are correct, however with that your assuming that Kinnoul, Leith et al will win every game they play which is impossible so therefore your calcs are quite incorrect You've got that completely wrong. Have another look. I've used PPG, exactly the same as has been used by the EoSFL. The only difference is that I've calculated is separately for home and away games, because there's a big difference in the proportion of home and away games that clubs have had. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunfermline Jag said: On the face of it that seems fairer but what aout the standard of opponent played so far? If a team has played more games against better opposition already that depresses their overall points per game so far. You are then applying that figure to future games when, in fact, they would have done better in those games because of the relatively weaker nature of the opposition. All that is before you take account of injuries to key players, teams having more games in a shorter time and all the other variables that affect PPG at various points in the season. In truth, short of completing the current season - and that is not going to happen - there is NO truly fair way to end it and any method you choose will disadvantage some teams. At least simple PPG is transparent and easy to understand which I think makes it easier for those clubs who are disadvantaged to accept. Generally that's right, there's no perfectly fair way to do it and they're all compromises.. But there's no statistically reasonable way of controlling for the quality of opposition faced so far, whereas it's very easy to apply PPG to home and away games separately instead of combined. It's a pretty obvious fact of football that teams generally do much better at home, so ignoring the fact that LTVH have had 14 home and 10 away, while Kinnoull have had 9 home and 8 away is unnecessary. It's as easy to account for as it is to do flat PPG and there's no good reason not to do it. There seems to be a lot of defensiveness in the replies to my point here (not so much you, good sir), which i just don't understand. It's really obvious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldie2k19 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 At the end of the day there is more important things in life than complaining about ppg. Let's just look forward to next season (whenever that may be.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 There is no clear way to use ppg midway through a season with so many variables involved that were yet to be encountered. With home or away games or strength of opposition played or to play, also add in the amount of inter conference games you might have played and who they were against, it throws ppg into question. It does the conference teams out of a promotion place next season aswell. But its been voted through and there is hee haw we can do to change that now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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