U18s development league

[Bestsinceslicebread]

30 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

 

 

I'm not coming at this blind either.

I started my coaching journey as an under 19's manager 10 years ago with the sole remit of developing players who can step into first team football. We were pretty successful at that.

The reason I was asked to do it, as a recent ex player who had to retire young through injury, was because the boys club approach wasn't working for our club as well as it was hoped. The best players from our young teams struggled to step up, despite their obvious ability.

I later moved as first team coach to one of the biggest legacy community clubs in the West of Scotland, with kids teams all the way from 20's down to 4 year olds. I saw what worked but most importantly what didn't in another context and those experiences, as well as my current role, have formed my opinion over the last 10 years.

Now I'm managing a first team and my background in developing youth players and seeing the benefits of that means I want a working pathway as part of my football structure and I have a firm view on what is best placed to give the players the best possible chance to develop.

The first thing I did when we moved EoS was bring in joint 20's managers, one with 20 years experience playing at a very good level (now moved on to first team management himself) and a coach who had been involved in community football for 10+ years, to add that expertise.

This season we added 19's with a manager still playing in the senior game and another who played at a good level, who also run their own performance academy. We have a wealth of knowledge and experience in all levels of the game now and we use all of that to try and build a successful pathway. Up to now, it's working, but there's still more we need to build.

In my opinion, a grassroots/boys club type approach up to under 17's, 19's & 20's wouldn't give players the best platform. There's too much of a disconnect between those levels themselves and the first team as a whole.

As a simple example, I think there's very little, if any, emphasis on the mental aspects of first team football through the grassroots setups beneath 20's, in my experience. We (rightly) concentrate our coaching courses on developing technical ability in the team that players currently play in, through most often a single set of coaches for sometimes 10 plus years.

We used to see it at our community levels and we still do. A volunteer coach, someone's dad a lot of the time, gets the badges and runs the team from the early ages, moving with them to the end of their grassroots journey at times, right up to 19's.

Now that's great, because we need people to run teams to get and keep boys playing and I've nothing but respect for the coaches who do that. I watch our young teams at times and as someone who has only ever coached from under 16's to First Team, it's a completely different skillset. I couldn't do what those guys do, so they are hugely important for engagement and participation.

But one of the things we noticed was that the first time some really talented players were being asked to adapt to new coaching methods, or new expectations around logistics, or just new personalities was when they stepped from you football at under 19, where they'd had the same coaches and sometimes the same teammates for 10 years, into a first team. They hadn't developed the ability to adapt to new coaches, new methods or new groups of players and it put a false barrier in to their development that often was bigger than the technical or physical step up. They end up falling away because they're "not liking it", not because they're not good enough, because it's "different" and they've no ability to adapt to change.

That's why I think a 17's/18's & 20's development set up at the end of grassroots is so important. In the model we use, I appoint those coaches and they're static. The players have to get used to adapting to the first coaching team and will regularly be in with the 20's and first team so be learning that adaptability/mental requirement for 3-5 years before being dropped into a senior team full time, removing that barrier to their progress. They've already learned how to adapt to new messages, or just different ways of expressing the same messages.

Plus regular exposure to the levels above aids in technical development as well. Something being denied by not being able to move between the sides in the SYFA model.

And because the years are staggered more players can pass through, covering your concern about late bloomers. We've all seen it, but in that model you still catch them.

For me, I don't care about the politics, the only thing that interests me is giving the players coming through our pathway the best possible opportunities to play at the highest level they can in the adult game. For some, that will be below the level of our first team, for others that will be our first team and for others still that will be above the level of our first team. If we take that approach, we'll benefit as a club, but more importantly so will the players who come through our setup.

 

First of all Gaz, im not saying your coming inblind, far from it.
Im in agreement with most of what you say.

Sometimes I hate putting stuff down incase other take offence when its not intended that way 

My experience is my own and I can only say from that but its involved in grassroots and too many higher up don't think of the effect, not saying you haven't thought of the effet by the way, im just fully immersed in it at this end but still get myself involved higher up because as a coach, everyone of us are always learning..

One thing we are in fully agreement with is what you have stated here

"We used to see it at our community levels and we still do. A volunteer coach, someone's dad a lot of the time, gets the badges and runs the team from the early ages, moving with them to the end of their grassroots journey at times, right up to 19's.

Now that's great, because we need people to run teams to get and keep boys playing and I've nothing but respect for the coaches who do that. I watch our young teams at times and as someone who has only ever coached from under 16's to First Team, it's a completely different skillset. I couldn't do what those guys do, so they are hugely important for engagement and participation.

But one of the things we noticed was that the first time some really talented players were being asked to adapt to new coaching methods, or new expectations around logistics, or just new personalities was when they stepped from you football at under 19, where they'd had the same coaches and sometimes the same teammates for 10 years, into a first team. They hadn't developed the ability to adapt to new coaches, new methods or new groups of players and it put a false barrier in to their development that often was bigger than the technical or physical step up. They end up falling away because they're "not liking it", not because they're not good enough, because it's "different" and they've no ability to adapt to change."

 

That's is a normal, the volunteer dad, no matter what level he has played at previous, amateur, junior senior etc.. is still a dad and volunteer so who says his coaching is good or bad but one thing we know, when a team moves from U13 to U14s they're are entering a new faster environment but also its not just the players, its the coaches so they need to develop not just the training but the mentality. We have coaches now coming down helping the younger coaches, we have coaches coming to older sessions and we ask that every so often that they go and watch first team sessions.  We want a u19s experience coach to stay at that level, even at U17s and U21s and the same with the development squad and thus the reserve team, if one and the first team. We all need to bounce off each other.  I'm in agreement with everything your saying but an U18s development league, if your part of the pathway is connecting with the younger teams then put a U17s coach in place who stays at U17s grassroots level so when each team reach's U17s they come under the guidance of the U17s coach and then when the team moves up to the U19s the same happens again the team and coaches come under the guidance of the experienced U19s coach, that's my view as I see it being less harm to the grassroots teams as in attitudes.

You are always, I mean always going to have coaches who don't give a shite, (although they say they do) but they are more interested in winning than development.
The team I took over at U19s were, to put it bluntly, fucking horrendous, the previous coach was all about him so I've set about helping the team and changing what needs to be changed, helping the academy with the other coaches to start bouncing off of each other and helping and having a connection and relationship that will continue to flourish.

I think everything you have stated is great but if a little change in the structure of the grassroots section instead of the U18s teams, I believe there would be so much more beneficial to all involved.

You get the just of my view, I'm sure you will take it in and I don't mind if your view doesn't change and I'm sure your kl if my view doesn't change, I'm coming in at it from the grassroots level and with your view I think its perfect except down at U18s but if the academy and first team that I work with if they have that at the top down then I think its a perfect fully functioning football team and academy including development team and grassroots

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[oldandround]

A few of these posts are about protecting the 19s or other grassroots ages.

That age group is now dead in the east. There are just 10 u19 teams left.

Other than a spartans team and one playing under the name of Edinburgh city, none of them are linked to a senior club.

Last years u19 champions, longniddry villa (an under 18 side really) moved enmasse to Preston as u20s. The Musselburgh Windsor 17 folded and the players moved to u20 at Musselburgh Utd. As did Hutchison vale, and at least 10 other clubs.

The only teams left at 19s are the legacy 3rd and 4th division teams now enjoying their time at the top.

East U19 football is going the way of u21s and won’t exist in 3 years.

These (sorry but) lower quality lads simply can’t make the jump to u20s from 17s. So they will simply give up.
With 18s at least there is somewhere to try and continue, and in the pathway of a senior club.

Must be worth a try and gives the senior side a ready made replacements for their 20s and who knows maybe one or two make it to the 1sts.

If not at least they’re still playing and can migrate to amateurs (like leith next season)

Also removes the farce of the u18s cup where senior teams enter only to learn they can’t play u20s or u18s from the community team (Bonnyrigg rose leap to mind here!)

A lot of this is a mirror to the sjfa fiasco ensuing in the west

[Bestsinceslicebread]

5 hours ago, oldandround said:

A few of these posts are about protecting the 19s or other grassroots ages.

That age group is now dead in the east. There are just 10 u19 teams left.

Other than a spartans team and one playing under the name of Edinburgh city, none of them are linked to a senior club.

Last years u19 champions, longniddry villa (an under 18 side really) moved enmasse to Preston as u20s. The Musselburgh Windsor 17 folded and the players moved to u20 at Musselburgh Utd. As did Hutchison vale, and at least 10 other clubs.

The only teams left at 19s are the legacy 3rd and 4th division teams now enjoying their time at the top.

East U19 football is going the way of u21s and won’t exist in 3 years.

These (sorry but) lower quality lads simply can’t make the jump to u20s from 17s. So they will simply give up.
With 18s at least there is somewhere to try and continue, and in the pathway of a senior club.

Must be worth a try and gives the senior side a ready made replacements for their 20s and who knows maybe one or two make it to the 1sts.

If not at least they’re still playing and can migrate to amateurs (like leith next season)

Also removes the farce of the u18s cup where senior teams enter only to learn they can’t play u20s or u18s from the community team (Bonnyrigg rose leap to mind here!)

A lot of this is a mirror to the sjfa fiasco ensuing in the west

No it is not about that, not one of my posts are about protecting U19s football

Its about youth football through the age groups and the effect on them if a U18s development league is set up

I am all for development league, the U20s, been waiting on this crap with the juniors to get sorted and a new WOS staring that way an U20s development league in the west can hopefully be formed as I can only see this as a 100% improvement in developing football

 

Your comment   "These (sorry but) lower quality lads simply can’t make the jump to u20s from 17s. So they will simply give up.
With 18s at least there is somewhere to try and continue, and in the pathway of a senior club."

I get why you said that and agree with that but that's where your problem lies, to get lads to U18s development, most will play beside these lads who are not good enough so if you don't care about it then the lads who are good enough wont get the chance to reach development squads because they would have left earlier with the weaker players who are their pals.

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, oldandround said:

Also removes the farce of the u18s cup where senior teams enter only to learn they can’t play u20s or u18s from the community team (Bonnyrigg rose leap to mind here!)

We would love to enter that, but it is just a logistical nightmare so we have left it.   It shouldn't be like that.

[BTID]

Interesting topic.
 

The one thing that unites everyone is a want to improve youth football. 
 

From what I see, any sort of development age group is beneficial for the progression of youth football. I’m sure everyone would agree watching the syfa at the upper age groups in particular that it’s on its knees. The amount of clubs folding is catastrophic at u19s this season. 
 

In the two main leagues through here at 19s in the top tier - 40% of clubs have folded. FORTY.

So it’s not about saving grassroots at this age, it’s already crippled. For me, by the time boys get to 16-19 they think for themselves and parents start to become less involved. Today’s society has many more options to choose so retaining and developing those that really want to take their football seriously is the main priority imo. The days of infinite teams and players playing is finished. Reality is the future will need to be fewer teams, better quality coaches, better facilities and opportunities to progress. 
 

Clubs running a u18 and U20s aren’t elite clubs, nor are the players elite either...boys will prob train twice a week. That for me is an absolute minimum to play the sport at a decent level, other sports would demand a much higher commitment. I would certainly look into this at my club, any 16 or 17 year old at a U20s unless exceptional will not be playing regularly for the 20s. A bridge 18 to 20 makes sense to me - where I’d possibly even scrap my 17s and just go 13s 14s 15s 16s syfa and 18s 20s SFA.