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Burnie_man

2020/2021 Scottish Cup

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With 6 new clubs Licenced today  (Haddington. Bo'ness, Dunipace, Camelon, Newtongrange and Tranent), and maybe more to follow before the SFA AGM, anyone care to take a punt on how the Prelims might be structured for next season?

EDIT: 6 clubs now

Edited by Burnie_man

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Just now, Burnie_man said:

With 5 new clubs Licenced today  (Haddington. Bo'ness, Dunipace, Camelon, and Newtongrange), and maybe more to follow before the SFA AGM, anyone care to take a punt on how the Prelims might be structured for next season?

I'll wait and see if any of the existing members lose there's before the AGM before having a proper guess.

Chances are you can still make the current structure of 2 prelims work with the numbers dependent on that. Maybe just have HL champion & LL Champion enter the 2nd Round to open up some spots instead of the four that go to Tier 5.

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I feel like I'm constantly banging on about this, but the simple approach is just to have all the Championship clubs entering at R3, rather than the top four sides entering R4 as is currently the case. That would reduce it to only one preliminary round  with minimal impact on the rest of the competition. These four Championship clubs tend to have the week off on R3 weekend anyway.

For simplicity, let's assume that only those 5 clubs are licensed (and that nobody loses theirs), that would give us 103 licensed clubs in total. Let's also assume that there are no other changes to the entry list - ie that the Junior, Amateur, EoS, SoS and South & East Shield spots remain open. That means we could have as many as 109 entrants (103 licensed + 4 Junior + Musselburgh + Amateur Cup).

It's slightly complicated by not knowing how many teams will be in the Highland League next year, but the entry list would look something like that.

PR - 35/36 (Tier 6 and below + other entrants)
R1 - 29/30 (HL & LL outside top 2)
R2 - 14 (League 2 + top 2 HL and LL)
R3 - 20 (Championship + League 1)
R4 - 10 Premiership

Preliminary Round - 26 teams
Round 1 - 52 teams (15/16 HL + 14 LL + 9/10 byes + 13 winners)
Round 2 - 40 teams (26 R2 winners  + 10 League 2 + 2 HL + 2 LL)
Round 3 - 40 teams (20 R2 winners + 10 Championship + 10 League 1)
Round 4 - 32 teams (20 R3 winners + 12 Premiership)

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1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

I feel like I'm constantly banging on about this, but the simple approach is just to have all the Championship clubs entering at R3, rather than the top four sides entering R4 as is currently the case. That would reduce it to only one preliminary round  with minimal impact on the rest of the competition. These four Championship clubs tend to have the week off on R3 weekend anyway.

There's a £14k difference between R3 exit and R4 exit, £6k R3, £20k R4.  That perhaps plays a part.

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WILLIAM HILL SCOTTISH CUP 2019-20
 
CLUB BONUS PAYMENTS  
 
Bonus payments for club participation in the William Hill Scottish Cup will be distributed as outlined below.  The sums will be paid to each club playing in each round:
 
Clubs playing in the 1st Preliminary Round will receive (26 clubs)  £3,000
 
Clubs playing in the 2nd Preliminary Round will receive (14 clubs)  £3,000
 
Clubs playing in Round One will receive (36 clubs)    £4,000
 
Clubs playing in Round Two will receive (32 clubs)    £5,000
 
Clubs playing in Round Three will receive (32 clubs)    £6,000
 
Clubs playing in Round Four will receive (32 clubs)     £20,000
 
Clubs playing in Round Five will receive (16 clubs)     £40,000
 
Clubs Playing in Round Six will receive (8 clubs)    £80,000
 
Semi-Finalist Clubs will receive (4 clubs)    £100,000
 
Loser of the Final Tie will receive    £160,000
 
Winner of the Final Tie will receive    £240,000

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It wouldn't affect R4 payments - you've still got 32 clubs playing and 16 going out. By my reckoning Craigkillie's model would only involve increasing prizemoney pot by 2.4%, or alternately you could drop payments by a mere £350 (or only payments before R4 by £500).


When the cup got reorganised in 2007 there weren't enough clubs to fill R1 - nevermind prelims - so it was padded out with 4 byes from R3 to R4 and 4 from R1 to R2 (plus usually another random bye). Now there are too many clubs even for 2 prelims it'd be appropriate to reduce that padding, IMO.


Anyway rather premature chat. Big news is more clubs join after investing in their facilities and systems.

Bo'ness sees a big name return and they, Camelon or Dunipace v Falkirk could be "tasty".

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7 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

It wouldn't affect R4 payments - you've still got 32 clubs playing and 16 going out. By my reckoning Craigkillie's model would only involve increasing prizemoney pot by 2.4%, or alternately you could drop payments by a mere £350 (or only payments before R4 by £500).

Yeah I know, but suggesting that all Championship sides enter at R3, means that for four clubs who are guaranteed £20k (by entering at R4), they are now only guaranteed £6k (by entering at R3).   It may not be a factor, just throwing it out there because this is Scottish fitba where every penny is jealously guarded.

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Only if they're so unsure of their own ability they fear losing to lower-ranked sides (or low chance of drawing each other). More likely they win, avoid a free week, pocket extra £6k and half-gate.

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Even if those clubs did think that way, they're unlikely to be a large enough bloc to really prevent it from happening.

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10 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Does anyone have a list of clubs due to enter next year's cup ? 

Something like this. Some of the SFA members are at risk of losing their licences due to not having floodlights. Have no idea if due to the circumstances around corona some sort of extension might be granted. Especially as everything is up in the air at the moment.

SPFL Premiership
1    Aberdeen
2    Celtic
3    Hamilton Academical
4    Heart of Midlothian
5    Hibernian
6    Kilmarnock
7    Livingston
8    Motherwell
9    Rangers
10    Ross County
11    St Johnstone
12    St Mirren
    
SPFL Championship
13    Alloa Athletic
14    Arbroath
15    Ayr United
16    Dundee
17    Dundee United
18    Dunfermline Athletic
19    Greenock Morton
20    Inverness CT
21    Partick Thistle
22    Queen of the South
    
SPFL League One
23    Airdrieonians
24    Clyde
25    Dumbarton
26    East Fife
27    Falkirk
28    Forfar Athletic
29    Montrose
30    Peterhead
31    Raith Rovers
32    Stranraer
    
SPFL League Two
33    Albion Rovers
34    Annan Athletic
35    Brechin City
36    Cove Rangers
37    Cowdenbeath
38    Edinburgh City
39    Elgin City
40    Queen's Park
41    Stenhousemuir
42    Stirling Albion
    
Highland Football League
43    Brora Rangers
44    Buckie Thistle
45    Clachnacuddin
46    Deveronvale
47    Formartine United
48    Forres Mechanics
49    Fort William
50    Fraserburgh
51    Huntly
52    Inverurie Loco Works
53    Keith
54    Lossiemouth
55    Nairn County
56    Rothes
57    Strathspey Thistle
58    Turriff United
59    Wick Academy
    
Lowland Football League
60    Berwick Rangers
61    Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic
62    BSC Glasgow
63    Caledonian Braves
64    Civil Service Strollers
65    Cumbernauld Colts
66    Dalbeattie Star
67    East Kilbride
68    East Stirlingshire
69    Edinburgh University
70    Gala Fairydean Rovers
71    Gretna 2008
72    Kelty Hearts
73    The Spartans
74    Stirling University
75    Vale of Leithen
    
South of Scotland Football League
76    Newton Stewart
77    St Cuthbert Wanderers
78    Threave Rovers
79    Wigtown & Bladnoch
    
East of Scotland Football League
80    Blackburn United
81    Bo'ness United
82    Broxburn Athletic
83    Burntisland Shipyard
84    Camelon Juniors
85    Coldstream
86    Dundonald Bluebell
87    Dunipace
88    Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare
89    Haddington Athletic
90    Hawick Royal Albert United
91    Hill of Beath Hawthorn
92    Jeanfield Swifts
93    Linlithgow Rose
94    Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale
95    Newtongrange Star
96    Penicuik Athletic
97    Preston Athletic
98    Tranent Juniors
99    Tynecastle
100    Whitehill Welfare

Other SFA members
101    Banks O'Dee
102    Girvan
103    Glasgow University
104    Golspie Sutherland
    
Qualifiers
105    Musselburgh Athletic (South & East Cup Winners' Shield)
    Amateur Cup winner
    Junior Cup winner
    SJFA West Premiership champion
    SJFA East Superleague champion
    SJFA North Superleague champion
    SoSFL champion
    EoSFL Premier Division champion

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I'm running a mock Scottish Cup this weekend (shut it we are all bored) for pals to bet on.

I have 109 entrants with the teams above. I just took Colville and Auchinleck as last year's cup winners and have declared Auchinleck, Carnoustie, Banks o Dee, Threave and Bo' Ness league winners on a PPG system. So Auchinleck, Colville, Carnoustie and BoD qualify.

I'll need to look at Craigkillies system as what I have ended up with is 3 prelim rounds and prelim round having 22 byes 

108. Forgot BoD were licensed. Might let Kilwinning Rangers in seeing as they were doing so well 

Edited by invergowrie arab

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5 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

I'm running a mock Scottish Cup this weekend (shut it we are all bored) for pals to bet on.

I have 109 entrants with the teams above. I just took Colville and Auchinleck as last year's cup winners and have declared Auchinleck, Carnoustie, Banks o Dee, Threave and Bo' Ness league winners on a PPG system. So Auchinleck, Colville, Carnoustie and BoD qualify.

I'll need to look at Craigkillies system as what I have ended up with is 3 prelim rounds and prelim round having 22 byes 

108. Forgot BoD were licensed. Might let Kilwinning Rangers in seeing as they were doing so well 

Could do the mock draw on here mate and everyone donates a fiver or so to it. 

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6 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

I'm running a mock Scottish Cup this weekend (shut it we are all bored) for pals to bet on.

I have 109 entrants with the teams above. I just took Colville and Auchinleck as last year's cup winners and have declared Auchinleck, Carnoustie, Banks o Dee, Threave and Bo' Ness league winners on a PPG system. So Auchinleck, Colville, Carnoustie and BoD qualify.

I'll need to look at Craigkillies system as what I have ended up with is 3 prelim rounds and prelim round having 22 byes 

108. Forgot BoD were licensed. Might let Kilwinning Rangers in seeing as they were doing so well 

Amateur Cup winners for accuracy - take your pick from semi-finalists Tollcross Thistle / Eastfield or Shortlees / Drumchapel Ams

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1 hour ago, Lyle Lanley said:

Could do the mock draw on here mate and everyone donates a fiver or so to it. 

I'll test it and see how it goes 

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When is this due to start then?

Wonder if he have a situation where far from having over 100 entrants we end up having a dozen.

Edited by invergowrie arab

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I think that this should be an exclusive competition for the top 20 teams in Scotland for this next year 

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2 hours ago, mrman2011 said:

I think that this should be an exclusive competition for the top 20 teams in Scotland for this next year 

Lost any credibility after the bit in bold.

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3 hours ago, mrman2011 said:

I think that this should be an exclusive competition for the top 20 teams in Scotland for this next year 

Gives the Teddy Bears a chance.

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If we're looking at (possibly) a full return to games by end of Sept/early Oct, the Scottish Cup would need to be curtailed although not by too much? could we therefore see a bit of re-jigging with Prelims scrapped and everyone below L2 in at Round 1?

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