2020/2021 Scottish Cup

[TheScarf]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

Bit of both I'd imagine but the standard from 8th in League Two down go 8th in EoS/WoS is all over the place. We need more relegation/promotion places in League Two and the Lowland League as priorities.

Yep, the pyramid is still finding it's way. Give it 2 or 3 seasons and the cream will rise to the top, as they say.  There's clearly teams in the league below other teams who are far better from L2 down.  Brechin City being the shining example.  They're no where near good enough to be as high as tier 4.

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, TheScarf said:

Yep, the pyramid is still finding it's way. Give it 2 or 3 seasons and the cream will rise to the top, as they say.  There's clearly teams in the league below other teams who are far better from L2 down.  Brechin City being the shining example.  They're no where near good enough to be as high as tier 4.

There is barely any movement between leagues so the mixture of standards, particularly at tier 5, will persist for far longer than it should.

[TheScarf]

3 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There is barely any movement between leagues so the mixture of standards, particularly at tier 5, will persist for far longer than it should.

Fair point. It looks even worse because the leagues were effectively voided last season. You'd have to think that, certainly Kelty, would've taken Brechin apart over 2 legs.  Clearly half the teams in the Lowland league would ream Brechin, possibly a couple in the Highland too. 

[No One Mourned the Juniors]

3 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Yep, the pyramid is still finding it's way. Give it 2 or 3 seasons and the cream will rise to the top, as they say.  There's clearly teams in the league below other teams who are far better from L2 down.  Brechin City being the shining example.  They're no where near good enough to be as high as tier 4.

Guarantee you after their humiliation today Brechin will already be onto the SFA/SPFL to have the season cancelled so they dont get relegated. They should have gone down last season but somehow this club continually hang on to an SPFL place.

No club that has finished bottom the Scottish League structure a staggering 13 times in less than 100 years should be anywhere near the national league. Time for them to embrace their future as Highland League jobbers.

[Jimmy Shaker]

Allow me to go all HibeeJibee and rehash a post from elsewhere, but Sky didn’t mention this round in any seriousness at all and their attitude to the first round was a disgrace. They’d the fixtures up early doors but, despite goals being scored, didn’t update them and I think took them off the menu before half time. Stelling is still cracking wise about Keith having a player called Keith after all these years, but his producers didn’t seem bothered enough to find out the scores elsewhere. No danger they’d treat the first round of the FA Cup like this. Not sure what the BBC managed to churn out. 

LiveScore did at least spent their time ripping details off Twitter, from the few clubs who managed to operate some kind of social media correctly. Most seem to have abandoned doing updates in favour of hoping fans bought into the streams, meaning most teams did the bare minimum such as only posting one team line, and likes of Lothian Thistle didn’t post anything throughout the game, Albion didn’t give scorers, Nairn and Broxburn couldn’t even say their game was goalless through 90 minutes, and Keith still don’t know how Twitter works (beyond looking up and liking porn posts during games). 

I don’t think it’s a lot to ask that clubs make an effort to keep Twitter and the like updated when fans can’t get into games just now. 

[Marshmallo]

1 minute ago, TheScarf said:

Fair point. It looks even worse because the leagues were effectively voided last season. You'd have to think that, certainly Kelty, would've taken Brechin apart over 2 legs.  Clearly half the teams in the Lowland league would ream Brechin, possibly a couple in the Highland too. 

Look at what Buckie did at Albion Rovers today. I'm far from an expert on the HL but they're certainly not the best side in the league as far as I can see?

If everyone was in the WoS this season I'd back at least 10 teams at tier 5 and below to demolish Albion Rovers or Brechin over 2 legs.

Pub teams like Vale of Leithen at tier 5 is just as much of a shambles tbf and the LL needs to sort its own relegation out as much as L2.

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Allow me to go all HibeeJibee and rehash a post from elsewhere, but Sky didn’t mention this round in any seriousness at all and their attitude to the first round was a disgrace. They’d the fixtures up early doors but, despite goals being scored, didn’t update them and I think took them off the menu before half time. Stelling is still cracking wise about Keith having a player called Keith after all these years, but his producers didn’t seem bothered enough to find out the scores elsewhere. No danger they’d treat the first round of the FA Cup like this. Not sure what the BBC managed to churn out. 

Pretty sure that Sky have dinghied the FA Cup completely in recent years and reported only on league matches e.g. for the Fifth Round when most teams are out.

[TheScarf]

1 minute ago, Marshmallo said:

Look at what Buckie did at Albion Rovers today. I'm far from an expert on the HL but they're certainly not the best side in the league as far as I can see?

If everyone was in the WoS this season I'd back at least 10 teams at tier 5 and below to demolish Albion Rovers or Brechin over 2 legs.

Pub teams like Vale of Leithen at tier 5 is just as much of a shambles tbf and the LL needs to sort its own relegation out as much as L2.

Yeah Buckie aren't a top HL at the moment. I guess the WOS being formed has highlighted the fact even more that the LL is just a bunch of sides who were lucky enough to apply to join it and be accepted when it was first formed? Not sure what the process was. 

[Marshmallo]

12 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Yeah Buckie aren't a top HL at the moment. I guess the WOS being formed has highlighted the fact even more that the LL is just a bunch of sides who were lucky enough to apply to join it and be accepted when it was first formed? Not sure what the process was. 

Depends who you listen to about how the LL was set up. From what I've read the Junior teams were far too slow to read the situation and a dinosaur attitude meant that smaller clubs with more vision got a jump on them. Now you have teams in the LL who have no incentive to open their league up more to bigger clubs below them (and who can blame them).

This maybe isn't the thread but this is a shoot on the biggest issues with the Scottish football pyramid, in order:

1) Two feeders at tier 6 covering the same geographical region in the West. One of which is home to such luminaries as Little Creetownvale, The Red Lion and Dumfries YMCA under 16s B.

2) The lack of an automatic relegation spot from League 2. 

3) One (alleged) relegation spot from the LL. This is further complicated by number 1 on this list.

4) No tier 6 in the North.

5) Continued use of conferences in the EoS after 3 years of ex Juniors moving over. This is very very minor compared to the top 4.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Marshmallo

[tamthebam]

Apart from Clydebank who showed tentative interest the West Juniors were a bit sniffy towards the Lowland League when it was set up so EK, Cumbernauld Colts and BSC got the places that might have gone to, if not Cumnock and Talbot, then Petershill or Pollok.

Lothian Thistle were actually better than Vale when the LL was set up but Saughton Enclosure didn't quite have the same facilities (i.e. cover) as Victoria Park.

Funnily enough all this ex-West Juniors girning has only happened since the Mighty City and then Cove got into the Scottish League via the Play Offs.

 

[BlueSister]

25 minutes ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Allow me to go all HibeeJibee and rehash a post from elsewhere, but Sky didn’t mention this round in any seriousness at all and their attitude to the first round was a disgrace. They’d the fixtures up early doors but, despite goals being scored, didn’t update them and I think took them off the menu before half time. Stelling is still cracking wise about Keith having a player called Keith after all these years, but his producers didn’t seem bothered enough to find out the scores elsewhere. No danger they’d treat the first round of the FA Cup like this. Not sure what the BBC managed to churn out. 

LiveScore did at least spent their time ripping details off Twitter, from the few clubs who managed to operate some kind of social media correctly. Most seem to have abandoned doing updates in favour of hoping fans bought into the streams, meaning most teams did the bare minimum such as only posting one team line, and likes of Lothian Thistle didn’t post anything throughout the game, Albion didn’t give scorers, Nairn and Broxburn couldn’t even say their game was goalless through 90 minutes, and Keith still don’t know how Twitter works (beyond looking up and liking porn posts during games). 

I don’t think it’s a lot to ask that clubs make an effort to keep Twitter and the like updated when fans can’t get into games just now. 

The people who used to "watch" the match whilst posting regular updates on Twitter are probably now the ones who "watch" it through the viewfinder of the camera, or from behind a mic.  There aren't that many volunteers around and clubs can only let a minimum in to cover the games.

[HenryHill]

45 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Look at what Buckie did at Albion Rovers today. I'm far from an expert on the HL but they're certainly not the best side in the league as far as I can see?

If everyone was in the WoS this season I'd back at least 10 teams at tier 5 and below to demolish Albion Rovers or Brechin over 2 legs.

Pub teams like Vale of Leithen at tier 5 is just as much of a shambles tbf and the LL needs to sort its own relegation out as much as L2.

I think we can all agree tier three looks about right though...

[Marshmallo]

Tiers of a clown

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, charlie king mvp said:

I’m as pissed off as any Brechin fan but that summing up of the game isn’t true. It was not “like the Alamo” at all.

I said it was like the Alamo at times, and it was. For example, there was a spell towards the end where it was deflected shot - corner - desperate save - cross - good save - corner - clearance - dangerous dribble into the box - corner - scramble - clearance. That sort of sequence happened a few times during the game, and more as it wore on and Linlithgow Rose grew in confidence. In injury time Watt was strolling past defenders on the goal line and just before that Ruari McLennan was almost clean through and really should have scored. Ronald had the left back on toast all day, I don't recall him stopping a single cross. 

This is far from a classic Linlithgow Rose side either, this is a team in transition who have only found a way to scramble results in recent weeks after a defeat and 4 draws in the opening games. Tommy Coyne saved us from defeat by Glasgow Uni. It's the first time we've beaten anyone half-decent since Broxburn and Newtongrange a year ago. This was by far their best performance since the new manager came in a year ago, and tbh it was partly because Brechin appeared to have no midfield at all.

I really feel sorry for Brechin fans, because you deserve better than this. They have a lot of players who have no business being in the SPFL.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

Yep, the pyramid is still finding it's way. Give it 2 or 3 seasons and the cream will rise to the top, as they say.  There's clearly teams in the league below other teams who are far better from L2 down.  Brechin City being the shining example.  They're no where near good enough to be as high as tier 4.

It'll take more than 2-3 years, because on the basis of what I saw today there are at least half a dozen teams in the LL better than Brechin, at least the same in the EoS and probably an entire division in the WoS. But there are also at least 3 clubs in the LL who are now well above their level too.

I mean no disrespect to any of these clubs btw, they're all run by folk doing their best to give football to their communities, and many of them are those who had the courage and foresight to build the pyramid in the first place.

[HibeeJibee]

You had to get licensed within 2 years to enter LL. No junior clubs were interested (attributale to a large extent to the attitude of their leadership). This meant it effectively got left to SFA member clubs in EOSL; Dalbeattie and Threave; plus up-n-coming Strathclyde teams like EK, BSCG and Cumbernauld. They formed LL from 2013 as no-one else would.

Edinburgh City won promotion to SPFL2 in 2016. Caledonian Braves came up from SOSL in 2017. LTHV and Leith were unable to get licensed.

Since then Threave, Preston, Hawick, Selkirk and Whitehill have gone down. (Selkirk folded; Hawick and Preston dropped another tier; Whitehill are following suit). 'Shire and Berwick have been relegated from SPFL2. Kelty, Bonnyrigg and Bo'ness have come up from EOSL.

What further transformed the situation was the collapse of Junior football from 2018 to 2020, sparked by 25 being admitted to EOSL; then 2 the following year; then 8. This has left just 9 juniors south of the Tay (in West Lothian) and latterly brought WOSL into being.

It has also taken time for old EOSL clubs who never reached LL to recover. It should be remembered clubs like Coldstream, Heriot-Watt Uni, Leith, LTHV, Tynecastle and Preston voted pretty selflessly to admit junior clubs on a conference basis in 2018 even though it likely condemend them to dropping a tier (and indeed they all missed-out on the new Premier Division: in most cases narrowly so). It's interesting to note none of the 3 clubs promoted from EOSL First Division to Premier for this season were ex-Junior, nor are either club currently occupying this season's promotion places.

So there have been multiple dynamics at play... (1) formation of LL by long-standing senior clubs; (2) clubs descending into LL from SPFL2; (3) expansion and strengthening of EOSL, collapse of junior football, clubs ascending into LL from EOSL, formation of WOSL; (4) recovery of long-standing senior clubs.

Edited December 26, 2020 by HibeeJibee

[AlbionMan]

3 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

Bit of both I'd imagine but the standard from 8th in League Two down go 8th in EoS/WoS is all over the place. We need more relegation/promotion places in League Two and the Lowland League as priorities.

That's fine up to a point, although you're ignoring the Highland League in your priorities.

Aside from that, until numbers in the respective leagues are more equal, it would be difficult to reconcile relegation places from a 10 team league with promotion places from a 16 or18 team league. Get league sizes more similar then ask for increased promotion places, although having done that there would then be the same discussion between a 16/18 tier 4 with 10 team tier 3.

[Marshmallo]

2 minutes ago, AlbionMan said:

That's fine up to a point, although you're ignoring the Highland League in your priorities.

Aside from that, until numbers in the respective leagues are more equal, it would be difficult to reconcile relegation places from a 10 team league with promotion places from a 16 or18 team league. Get league sizes more similar then ask for increased promotion places, although having done that there would then be the same discussion between a 16/18 tier 4 with 10 team tier 3.

With an attitude like that you'll end up on the SPFL board

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Are ineligible players allowed to play in any other cups then ? 

Being brushed aside by yer own governing body who cant even acknowledge the club whether ww or not is piss poor if you ask me.

The player was only ineligible if his SCC suspension applied to the Glasgow Uni game in round 2 of the 2020-21 cup. The confusion comes from the fact that his suspension was earned in the quarter-final of the 2019-20 edition, so they might've thought he would be suspended for the (yet to be played) semi-final instead. Which is presumably why the SFA have cited "exceptional circumstances" and censured HOB rather than exclude them.

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Several cups from last season have (or are being) finished this season - CL, EL, Scottish Cup, South Challenge Cup, Highland League Cup, Glasgow Cup, possibly EOS Qualifying Cup.

Plus first 4 mentioned had an overlap.

Although granted: no club in last season's Scottish Cup SFs/Final were also in this season's PR1/PR2. (It's possible some player may have been... perhaps some youngster released by or on loan from Hearts + Hibs to some Lowland/EOSL team).

Think you've just come full circle in your post - don't think any of the others listed have the semi-finalists also playing in the following season's opening rounds!  (Junior Cup as well, if that ever gets going...)

[Clayhole Blue]

the LL is just a bunch of sides who were lucky enough to apply to join it and be accepted when it was first formed? Not sure what the process was. 

The process was that anybody who wanted to could apply. The juniors ignored it collectively for about 3 years, which is why they now find themselves a league below some smaller clubs who took the precaution of bothering to apply. There wasn’t really all that much ‘luck’ about it.