Scottish Junior Caps

[Myles Offside]

An ex-pat Pommie friend of mine out here in Australia visited his cousin on a recent trip home. Cousin's husband showed him the caps in the attached pic which had belonged to his grandfather, John McQuade, who played for Neilston, Arthurlie and St Mirren. He asked if I could find any details of what games they might be from. I've found from the SFHA that the 1920 SvI is from Scotland Juniors v Ireland; John McQuade of Neilston Vic played and scored in a 3-0 victory. Scotland also played Ireland in 1913 but the team listed in SFHA doesn't include McQuade so I'm not sure how it came to be in his possession. Finally, GvI 1920-21 is a complete mystery. Could "G" be Glasgow? Any help that anyone can provide would be much appreciated.

[HibeeJibee]

There was recently a book published on Junior internationals:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/douglas-gorman-and-tom-mcgouran/junior-scotland-1889-to-2019-the-players-and-matches/paperback/product-24374426.html


John D McQuade (Neilston Vics) played in 1 'international' and 2 other matches:

17th Jan 1920 ... Stirlingshire Junior FA 1-1 Scottish Juniors (at Forthbank)
28th Feb 1920 ... Scottish Juniors 3-1 [Northern] Irish Juniors (at Firhill: att 17,254) ... scored 2nd goal
20th Mar 1920 ... Fife Junior FA 2-2 Scottish Juniors (at Dunfermline)

It doesn't list him as having played against Irish Juniors in 1913.


As you say G v I is almost certainly Glasgow Junior FA v Ireland.

I'm sure they had regular matches. Indeed the IRA bombed a tram leaving such a match in Belfast the following year:




It's worth saying the opposition was often billed as a national team when it wasn't.

"England" was actually the Birmingham County FA or at one time the Northern League. "Wales" was actually the North-West Counties FA.

"Northern Ireland" was at certain the times the Irish Intermediate League - including that bombing in 1922 - or the Mid-Ulster FA.

Edited February 22, 2020 by HibeeJibee

[Myles Offside]

20 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

There was recently a book published on Junior internationals:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/douglas-gorman-and-tom-mcgouran/junior-scotland-1889-to-2019-the-players-and-matches/paperback/product-24374426.html


John D McQuade (Neilston Vics) played in 1 'international' and 2 other matches:

17th Jan 1920 ... Stirlingshire Junior FA 1-1 Scottish Juniors (at Forthbank)
28th Feb 1920 ... Scottish Juniors 3-1 [Northern] Irish Juniors (at Firhill: att 17,254) ... scored 2nd goal
20th Mar 1920 ... Fife Junior FA 2-2 Scottish Juniors (at Dunfermline)

It doesn't list him as having played against Irish Juniors in 1913.


As you say G v I is almost certainly Glasgow Junior FA v Ireland.

I'm sure they had regular matches. Indeed the IRA bombed a tram leaving such a match in Belfast the following year:




It's worth saying the opposition was often billed as a national team when it wasn't.

"England" was actually the Birmingham County FA or at one time the Northern League. "Wales" was actually the North-West Counties FA.

"Northern Ireland" was at certain the times the Irish Intermediate League - including that bombing in 1922 - or the Mid-Ulster FA.

Thanks

[Burnie_man]

@bluedragonmay be able to assist more with this.

[bluedragon]

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

@bluedragonmay be able to assist more with this.

My friend has found the answers to the questions but is unable to post them and has asked me to do so on his behalf. Here they are:

1. 1913 SvI Cap - This could have been awarded for Scottish Junior League 1-2 Irish Junior League, 15 March 1913, in Glasgow but I don't have the line-ups to confirm McQuade played. However, on 29 December 1913 at Grosvenor Park, Belfast, McQuade played for the Scottish Junior League in a 0-3 defeat to Irish Junior League 2nd Division.

2. 1920-21 GvI Cap - On 31 December 1920 at Shawfield Park, McQuade of Renfrew played left back for the Glasgow Junior League in a 1-1 draw with the Irish Intermediate League.

I can add a few things about the 1913 SvI cap.

1) I have seen a photograph of a cap awarded a year earlier in 1912 when the Scottish Junior Football League played the Irish Football League Second Division on 26 October 1912. This cap was a dark red with a gold embroidered band and the lettering read “S.J.F.L. 1912”.  However, we probably  cannot read too much into that as it is quite possible that the design may have changed for the following season.

2) From work my friend has done I can confirm that McQuade was not a travelling reserve, who would have received a cap, for the SJFA Junior Scotland team against Ireland on 26 March 1913.  If we do a second version of the Junior Internationals book we will be including travelling reserves.

3) In early 1913 McQuade’s only representative football I can find in the BNA was when he was selected to play for Renfrewshire. However, later in the year he was selected to play for the Scottish Junior Football League against the Scottish Reserve League at Cappielow on 15 November 1913 just six weeks before the match in Belfast. I think this might suggest that the match on 29 December 1913 is favourite for when the cap was awarded.

Edited February 24, 2020 by bluedragon

[Myles Offside]

Many thanks gents, much appreciated.

[bluedragon]

13 minutes ago, Myles Offside said:

Many thanks gents, much appreciated.

I have put all the details of the three matches on to one post for ease.

1913 S v I

Date – 29 December 1913

Result – Irish Football League Second Division 3 (2) Scottish Junior League 0 (0)

Ground – Grosvenor Park, Belfast (Distillery FC)

Attendance – 6,000 receipts £157

Scottish Junior League goal scorers – none.

Scottish Junior League - McBride (Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors), Mackie (St Anthony’s), JOHN McQUADE (NEILSTON VICTORIA), William Hendry (Kirkintilloch Harp), M’Gachy (Croy Celtic), Sommerville (Pollok), James Stalker (St Ninians), Hannah (Renfrew Juniors), Kelly (Bedlay Juniors), Brown (Yoker Athletic) & Goudie (Kilsyth Emmet). Travelling reserve – M’Tavish (Kirkintilloch Harp).

Note – the Irish team was from the Second Division of the Irish Senior League that was made up of the reserve teams of the First Division clubs.

By one of those strange coincidences just a month ago I saw a photograph of the cap awarded to William Hendry (Kirkintilloch Harp) for the previous match played between these sides on 26 October 1912 at Brockville, Falkirk.  This was the cap I mentioned earlier that was dark red with the embroidery reading “S.J.F.L. 1912”. As in this case the player’s descendant was trying to find out the match details.  I am slightly uneasy with the significant difference in the caps awarded just a year apart. However, I cannot see any other options. I even checked to see if he was selected (he wasn’t) in the Reserve XI for the SJFA team that played Ireland in the Junior International in March 1913 and was perhaps a very, very late replacement for the named travelling reserve and would have been awarded a cap.

1920 S v I

Date - 28 February 1920

Result - Scotland 3 (1) Ireland 1 (1)

Ground - Firhill, Glasgow (Partick Thistle FC)

Attendance - 17,254

Scotland goal scorers - Anderson, McQUADE, Dunn

Scotland - Ned Tweedley (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy), John Cornock (Ashfield), JOHN McQUADE (NEILSTON VICTORIA), Hugh McNair (Vale of Clyde), Morrison (Drongan), Brown (Renfrew) (Captain),  Tom Bennett (Renfrew), Jimmy Dunn (St Anthony's), David Anderson (Newtongrange Star), William Noble (Cumnock) & Stewart (Blantyre Celtic). Travelling reserve - Jimmy McMullan (Denny Hibernian).

Notes - Jimmy Dunn (St Anthony's) went on become a “Wembley Wizard” in 1928.  Jimmy McMullan (Denny Hibernian) is not the captain of the “Wembley Wizards” of the same name. However, they were cousins with a four year age difference.

1920/21 G v I

Date – 31 December 1920

Result – Glasgow Junior League 1 Irish Intermediate League 1

Ground – Shawfield, Glasgow (Clyde FC)

Attendance – 3,000

Glasgow Junior League goal scorer - Gallacher

Glasgow Junior League - Bruce (Kirkintilloch Rob Roy), Hunter (Larkhall Thistle), JOHN McQUADE (RENFREW JUNIORS), Hugh McNair (Vale of Clyde), Gibson (Ashfield), Moffat (Bellshill Athletic), Wallace Lambie (Pollok), Ballantyne (Ashfield), Gallacher (Bellshill Athletic), Bradley (Pollok) & McKay (Glasgow Perthshire).

Edited February 26, 2020 by bluedragon

[ExPatScot]

Hi - my great-grandfather, Charles Morgan, played outside left for Alloa Seafield Thistle FC in 1899. We have a photo of the team stating that they won the Clackmannanshire Junior League 1898-1899.

In the photo 2 of the team - Charles Morgan & R. Robertson (right half back & capt.) - are wearing caps (I've also included a photo of the cap which we still have, minus the disintegrated tassle). I'm wondering if they were won for playing in a junior league international? Or something else? (I did wonder if they were for winning the league, but that doesn't explain why only 2 of the team have them).

I'm just helping my son with a school project related to this & was wondering if anyone can help with more info? I've bought the book by Gorman & McGouran but it won't be here until next week. My son's project is due in on Monday! (shouldn't have left it to the last minute!)

We'll be most grateful for any help! Thanks.

[GNU_Linux]

@bluedragon may be able to help you.

[bluedragon]

On 03/09/2021 at 12:50, ExPatScot said:

Hi - my great-grandfather, Charles Morgan, played outside left for Alloa Seafield Thistle FC in 1899. We have a photo of the team stating that they won the Clackmannanshire Junior League 1898-1899.

In the photo 2 of the team - Charles Morgan & R. Robertson (right half back & capt.) - are wearing caps (I've also included a photo of the cap which we still have, minus the disintegrated tassle). I'm wondering if they were won for playing in a junior league international? Or something else? (I did wonder if they were for winning the league, but that doesn't explain why only 2 of the team have them).

I'm just helping my son with a school project related to this & was wondering if anyone can help with more info? I've bought the book by Gorman & McGouran but it won't be here until next week. My son's project is due in on Monday! (shouldn't have left it to the last minute!)

We'll be most grateful for any help! Thanks.

That’s a great photograph.  I believe that your great grandfather was one of four Alloa Seafield Thistle players selected to represent the Clackmannanshire Junior Football League (CJFL) against the Stirlingshire Junior Football Association on Saturday 15 April 1899 at Stenhousemuir.  He was selected at outside left with his club team mates Broadley the goalkeeper, Robertson at right half and Morgan at inside left.

I do not have the definite line-up but this is how it is thought the team lined up.

Broadley (Seafield Thistle); Burns (Vale of Forth) & Millar (Albion Rangers); Robertson (Seafield Thistle), Leckie (Albion Rangers) & Ferguson (Clackmannan Juniors); Graham (Albion Rangers), Young (Albion Rangers), Stalker (Vale of Forth), Murray (Seafield Thistle) & Morgan (Seafield Thistle).

Unfortunately Stirlingshire won 7-2 and were 4-0 up at half-time.

He may well have played in other matches for the CJFL and would have been presented with a cap for the 1898-99 season.

Representing your league or county was the first step towards winning a Junior International cap.  These inter-county games would have been eagerly watched by the selectors (and Senior clubs) who in 1899 would then select four teams to play in two final trial matches on the same day (“A” v “B” and “C” v “D”) at Celtic Park.  Unfortunately your grandfather did not make it to the final trials.

He signed for Clyde in November 1899 and was on £1.50 a week with a bonus of £1 for a win and 50p for a draw. He played 12 (4 goals) League and Cup matches in the 1899-1900 season and was on Clyde’s book up to and including the 1902-03 season.

I hope this helps.

Edited September 5, 2021 by bluedragon

[ExPatScot]

That is amazing information - thanks so much. Was that Clyde Juniors who played in the Glasgow District Junior League?

We've had a photo of the Alloa Seafield team in my parents house and now mine - since I was a boy. I've posted it here.

Charles Morgan sadly died in 1911 of pneumonia at the age of about 31.

[bluedragon]

6 hours ago, ExPatScot said:

Was that Clyde Juniors who played in the Glasgow District Junior League?

 

He was signed by Clyde, the Scottish League club.  Clyde finished bottom of the First Division at the end of the 1899-1900 season and Charles Morgan was released.  He signed for Alloa Athletic who were playing in the Central Combination. He played for them for several seasons.  One report said that he spent almost a season with an English club.

[MAGYAR1]

Here is some info for old newspaper clippings that might help.

One is from the Devon Valley Tribune (a newspaper from Clackmannanshire) dated 7th November 1899 and another from the Alloa Advertiser from 11 March 1911.

[ExPatScot]

On 06/09/2021 at 17:54, bluedragon said:

He was signed by Clyde, the Scottish League club.  Clyde finished bottom of the First Division at the end of the 1899-1900 season and Charles Morgan was released.  He signed for Alloa Athletic who were playing in the Central Combination. He played for them for several seasons.  One report said that he spent almost a season with an English club.

Thanks so much for the additional information - my Mum has been absolutely delighted with all that's been discovered. Its illuminated and settled family arguments about the cap & what Charlie had achieved.

[ExPatScot]

On 08/09/2021 at 14:35, MAGYAR1 said:

Here is some info for old newspaper clippings that might help.

One is from the Devon Valley Tribune (a newspaper from Clackmannanshire) dated 7th November 1899 and another from the Alloa Advertiser from 11 March 1911.

These are wonderful. I'll pass them along to our family. Thanks again for all your help.