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theesel1994

Juniors to East Seniors to Lowland League - what's the difference?

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Lovely - another Pyramid thread.
This one is more about the Seniors as the West Seniors don't have a forum......yet.
The Licencing goes into many things but what happens in reality? Segregation is required. Different toilets, different catering, different entrances etc. Does this happen in reality for Lowland League matches? Do EoSL have separate catering at their matches in preparation for stepping up? I can understand segregation in the Scottish FA Cup.....but the LL?
Provision for disabled spectators:
• A covered area with space for at least 2 wheelchairs and Personal Assistants.
So if there is already a covered stand would easy access for wheelchairs to this area be sufficient or would a shelter need to be created within that covered stand? Any time I google for images I get the Kilmarnock shelter.
What differences have happened in the East at grounds for clubs that are not fully licensed?
 
There is no requirement for anything like you mention at EOS level, nor will there be for wos level (tier 6).

Things only change when you enter the LL and to be fair there isnt a standardised approach for how things are meant to look, as every facility is set up slightly different. As long as a club in the LL has the entry level requirements, regardless of how they're set up in the building(s), they can get a licence.

Fan segregation wise you only have to show you have the ability to segregate.

Disabled shelter and fan shelter, I have seen everything from a class 1 stadium cover to a purpose built wooden structure all be accepted for licence.

Toilet set up is similar. In fact I have been to a licensed ground where there was a urinal in the changing room.....it met the criteria and as such the club were licensed.

The only advice for people would be to assess what they have, what they might need and what they definitely require based on the most current license criteria, it is a read but is quite clear on what is acceptable or not. Or contact the licence dept, they are very helpful and can help you understand what us meant in each criteria.

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3 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

There's plenty of SPFL grounds where I've never seen segregation or separate catering facilities. None of the four SPFL Angus clubs have ever had these when I've been there for example.

Not sure about Links Park, but the other 3 Angus grounds have segregation fences. Very rarely have I seen it enforced though, the gates are usually left open.

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So if you're a club who has some of these things and are working towards/ trying to find funding for getting the rest you should let folk in for free?


If you’ve taken in cash over the years (I’m going to assume these clubs you refer to aren’t newly formed) then you should be providing this level of service to the paying customer. If not, you shouldn’t be charging the same as those who do.

So no, not free of charge but certainly without providing basic comforts you shouldn’t be charging as much as others.

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Absolute bollocks. Charging cash at the gate for most clubs bar a couple can keep a team on the park and the lights on but most clubs rely on fan events/sponsorship/selling merchandise/generosity of local business etc to raise funds for all the extras and not all clubs have access to sponsors/ fan base to achieve these revenues.
The things you see as just standard nowadays are well beyond some clubs and could take them under trying to achieve it instantly just because others demand they get it. Some clubs aren't far away and others are miles from it. The snobbery on this issue at a level where most clubs are run by volunteers is outrageous

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7 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

Absolute bollocks. Charging cash at the gate for most clubs bar a couple can keep a team on the park and the lights on but most clubs rely on fan events/sponsorship/selling merchandise/generosity of local business etc to raise funds for all the extras and not all clubs have access to sponsors/ fan base to achieve these revenues.
The things you see as just standard nowadays are well beyond some clubs and could take them under trying to achieve it instantly just because others demand they get it. Some clubs aren't far away and others are miles from it. The snobbery on this issue at a level where most clubs are run by volunteers is outrageous

Nobody is asking anyone to do that. Peebles Rovers, Heriot-Watt University, Leith Athletic, Ormiston, Tweedmouth Rangers all members of the EoS from the inception of the pyramid straight through to today. None of them are licenced and none of them are being forced to either.

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12 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

Absolute bollocks. Charging cash at the gate for most clubs bar a couple can keep a team on the park and the lights on but most clubs rely on fan events/sponsorship/selling merchandise/generosity of local business etc to raise funds for all the extras and not all clubs have access to sponsors/ fan base to achieve these revenues.
The things you see as just standard nowadays are well beyond some clubs and could take them under trying to achieve it instantly just because others demand they get it. Some clubs aren't far away and others are miles from it. The snobbery on this issue at a level where most clubs are run by volunteers is outrageous

1. Not needed until level 5 so not something to get too worked up about.

2. If a club cannot provide acceptable supporter facilities FOR THE TIMES, why are they in a semi pro level of football, pyramid or no pyramid?

Edited by cmontheloknow

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Explain what's acceptable facilities

1. Not needed until level 5 so not something to get too worked up about.
2. If a club cannot provide acceptable supporter facilities FOR THE TIMES, why are they in a semi pro level of football, pyramid or no pyramid?

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Explain what's acceptable facilities

I did that a few posts back.

Shelter
Opportunity to sit
Workable, hygienic, covered Toilets for all at the game
Wash facilities
Hot food that’s produced in a clean environment

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Separate Male and female toilet facilities.

disabled access to all areas of the ground.

Some form of shelter from the elements.

Appropriate parking facilities.

Hot drinks and food served.

Nothing overly strenuous and things that every ground I think I have been to for a considerable number of years have had.

There will be varying levels of fancy but a flushing, clean toilet and a wee wooden structure to stand under with my pie and tea would do me.

Everything else over an above is licence level stuff and should only really include those clubs looking to get to tier 5.

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10 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

Explain what's acceptable facilities

"The things you see as just standard nowadays are well beyond some clubs"

If they are 'just standard' and a club cannot meet them, why are they playing semi pro football? The lack of investment in facilities over past decades is not the fault of a present-day committee but I do think it's true that an a number of clubs stumble from one season to the next on fumes, with little prospect of new blood breathing life into them. Sometimes local businesses get involved, or a player's dad / uncle can lend a hand and the place gets a facelift. One of our past management teams painted our roof black and white.

That said, the facilities at Newlandsfield could do with a refresh - but what's the incentive for anyone to invest when the only revenue we make is self-raised, there is lack of prize money, very poor national media exposure and there is no path to grow the club due to the glass ceiling above.

Edited by cmontheloknow

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So if youre missing 1 or 2 of those do you have to charge less for seeing the same standard of game

Separate Male and female toilet facilities.

disabled access to all areas of the ground.

Some form of shelter from the elements.

Appropriate parking facilities.

Hot drinks and food served.

Nothing overly strenuous and things that every ground I think I have been to for a considerable number of years have had.

There will be varying levels of fancy but a flushing, clean toilet and a wee wooden structure to stand under with my pie and tea would do me.

Everything else over an above is licence level stuff and should only really include those clubs looking to get to tier 5.

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24 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

So if youre missing 1 or 2 of those do you have to charge less for seeing the same standard of game

A few are quite fundamental.

"Sorry pal, no wheelchairs!"

"Ladies loo? Can you aim into the overflowing al fresco urinal behind that half fallen down wall...?"

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So if youre missing 1 or 2 of those do you have to charge less for seeing the same standard of game
I've no idea. Frankly I'm not really interested in that debate.

I'd say that there are some basic principles that any venue should have. I'm sure if they didn't, any health and safety representative would say their ground isnt fit for purpose.
(To be pedantic about it of course ).

I get that some clubs wont have everything. I'd say the basic elements would be toilets and disabled access. Food and cover wouldn't mean a place couldn't open.

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Well id argue that most of the wrjfa premier don't meet all of those criteria, yerselves, included

A few are quite fundamental.
"Sorry pal, no wheelchairs!"
"Ladies loo? Can you aim into the overflowing al fresco urinal behind that half fallen down wall...?"

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6 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

Well id argue that most of the wrjfa premier don't meet all of those criteria, yerselves, included

Think we have got the lot - female loos are in the pavilion.

Gents admittedly a bit more spartan... There's Lok's Bar & Kitchen I suppose...

A new loo block was under consideration but it all goes back to £££ and where to find it. 

Edited by cmontheloknow

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I've no idea. Frankly I'm not really interested in that debate.

I'd say that there are some basic principles that any venue should have. I'm sure if they didn't, any health and safety representative would say their ground isnt fit for purpose.
(To be pedantic about it of course ).

I get that some clubs wont have everything. I'd say the basic elements would be toilets and disabled access. Food and cover wouldn't mean a place couldn't open.
I'm not interested in it either but someone posted that point earlier. I agree with the rest of your post tho

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Think we have got the lot - female loos are in the pavilion.
Gents admittedly a bit more spartan... There's Lok's Bar & Kitchen I suppose...
A new loo block was under consideration but it all goes back to £££ and where to find it. 
Gents non existent if ye were nit picking.

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15 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

Gents non existent if ye were nit picking.emoji1787.png

I always seek the alternatives!

Thing is though right now there is no incentive for any wealthy individuals to invest in the club. That can be done while remaining committee-ran through sponsorship etc.

I first went to Annan for a pre season game in early 00s. They had just demolished their wee bus shelter covered enclosure. So all there was there was the pavilion and social club. Nothing else apart from the nets and a railing. We were back a few years later for pre-season, just before they got into SPFL, and the smart 400 seater stand was complete. Paid for by a local investor. Now they have added floodlights, 4G surface and a covered enclosure behind the goal. Would any of that happened without a bit of looking up and attracting in the right people? In the absence of pots of cash handed out by the governing body, it's up to clubs to be creative and try to meet their customers' needs.

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That's my point tho. All ye see on this platform is you don't have this/that etc.n I just did it to you to prove a point. Clubs are trying their best to try n achieve facilities within the means available to them bud and shouldn't be ridiculed or demeaned for not having/struggling to get them

I always seek the alternatives!
Thing is though right now there is no incentive for any wealthy individuals to invest in the club. That can be done while remaining committee-ran through sponsorship etc.
I first went to Annan for a pre season game in early 00s. They had just demolished their wee bus shelter covered enclosure. So all there was there was the pavilion and social club. Nothing else apart from the nets and a railing. We were back a few years later for pre-season, just before they got into SPFL, and the smart 400 seater stand was complete. Paid for by a local investor. Now they have added floodlights, 4G surface and a covered enclosure behind the goal. Would any of that happened without a bit of looking up and attracting in the right people? In the absence of pots of cash handed out by the governing body, it's up to clubs to be creative and try to meet their customers' needs.

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4 minutes ago, mightychewbacca said:

That's my point tho. All ye see on this platform is you don't have this/that etc.n I just did it to you to prove a point. Clubs are trying their best to try n achieve facilities within the means available to them bud and shouldn't be ridiculed or demeaned for not having/struggling to get them

I was well aware of Lok's shortfalls however we're fortunate there are alternatives when it comes to loos etc. When the social club was ours it was easier to just use their facilities and lots of folk would have done pre game / ht etc. The SJFA have a role to play in all of this as clubs were never encouraged to provide a decent minimum so all of the changes now will catch a few clubs out... though nothing new is needed below L5 anyway.

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