Alternate history of Scottish football

[RussellAnderson]

The Queens Park one is interesting to me. Would it possibly have curbed the appeal of Celtic and Rangers, and kept football on a more even keel in this country? Or were the identity politics of those two clubs too strong to resist and QP would have fallen by the wayside like Third Lanark, or become a distant third like Partick Thistle? Genuinely interested if anyone has any insight on what might have happened.

[GordonS]

53 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Not quite. Clyde needed a draw. Liam Keogh put ICT ahead. Ian Harty equalised from the spot with less than 20 to go. At this point Clyde would be champions. But Stevie Hislop headed the winner with about 10 mins left.

Ah yes, a draw was enough. I was at that game, a cracking double-header, I was at the Old Firm game before it.

44 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

4 hours ago, GordonS said:

Clyde were leading Inverness Caley Thistle in the penultimate round of games in the First Division in 2003-04. Had they held on they'd have won the league and been promoted (stadium issues notwithstanding). But Caley Thistle pulled it back to win 2-1. Would Caley Thistle have gone on to have an established run in the top flight? Would Clyde have become, if not an established top flight side then at least a Livingston or a Hamilton Accies? Or would Clyde's financial troubles been blown open in the Premier League and they'd have done a Gretna?
 

They had agreed to play at Rugby Park if they had been promoted.

I remember that was the plan but I couldn't remember if it was completely arranged. How stupid were the rules then that the three stands at Broadwood wouldn't have been enough?

[Sugar_Army]

FFS I am going to have sleepless nights now!  Where do I start?

If John Holt had not been deemed offside when Paul Sturrock struck to put United 2-1 up in the 1981 League Cup Final against Rangers would United have gone on to make it 3 in a row?

If Ralph Milne had netted his sitter in Rome at 0-0 would we have gone on to beat Liverpool in the 1984 European Cup final?

If United had not given up the chase after losing to Hearts in the 1986 run in would we have pipped Celtic to the title on the final day and saved the Jambos their final day trauma?

Had Kevin Gallacher not been deemed offside when Ian Ferguson scored to put United 1-0 up in the 1987 Scottish Cup Final against St Mirren would we have gone into the UEFA Cup Final in a different frame of mind a few days later?

If Billy Thomson had not taken a head knock and thereby been more alert to the freak bounce that led to Gothenburg taking a 1-0 lead to Tannadice would we have won the 1987 EUFA Cup by not pushing for an early goal and not leaving ourselves open to the sucker punch goal and therby be the last Scottish team to win a European trophy?

If Eammon Bannon had netted his glorious chance to put United 2-0 up in the 1988 Scottish Cup final would we have denied Celtic the double in their centenary year?

If Freddy van Der Hoorn's shot had struck the inside of the post and gone in instead of going out for a thrown in at 0-0 in the 1991 Scottish Cup final would Jim McLean have defeated his brother Tommy in the Family Final?

If Mark Kerr had not decided to pass the ball backwards to Kris Boyd in the 2006 League Cup Final...I think I need to go lie down in a darkened room

 

ifyergrannyhadbaws.com

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Sugar_Army

[Andy_K_97]

4 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

 

If certain events/happenings in Scottish football down the years had panned out differently the landscape of Scottish football could've been different. What things do you wonder about & what theories do you have? Few I've wondered about include:

 

Would Third Lanark still be around today if Hiddleston hadn't got involved with the club?

 

How would certain stadiums look if the 10000 rule had never been brought in?

 

If the intermediate dispute was never resolved what shape would non-league have taken?

 

If Queens Park had went professional when everyone else did how would they have faired & where would they be today?

 

If Rangers had gotten their way & the five had been expelled from the SFL what would've become of those clubs?

 

I can probably have a decent stab at the two highlighted questions here. Starting with the Hi-Hi, I think it's fair to say that they definitely wouldn't have gone bust in 1967 as even the board of enquiry who investigated the club's demise laid the blame solely with Hiddleston. I can't say for certain that they'd still be around today as who knows what could have happened in the 53 years from then, but it's probably fair to say that they'd be doing the rounds. Hiddleston took over in 1961, the year after they lost to Hearts in the League Cup final at Hampden. They also won the Glasgow Cup in 1963 so without the infamous chairman's involvement it's probably fair to say that they'd have continued to be a decent first division side with maybe the odd relegation and promotion along the way, but with a good enough fanbase to stick with them. 

This brings me to the next point, how would QP have done had they gone professional? This is a much bigger question to answer and has more potential what-ifs that come with it. In our timeline, the SFA legalised professionalism in the game in 1893, the same year as the spiders won their 10th Scottish Cup title - their last to date. The following year Rangers won their first Scottish Cup title, the first of 33 to date - this is already an indication of how things would go. In the very early days of football QP were very much the "establishment" club as they had pretty much single-handedly started popularising the game north of the border and had been hugely successful in the "amateur era" of the Victorian game. 

A couple of things are key here - due to the demographics of Glasgow's population it's highly likely that Rangers would have been the biggest losers if QP had gone pro back in those days, with Third Lanark also losing out. Celtic would probably have ended up a similar size due to the Irish origins of the club and the high number of Irish immigrants who had moved to Glasgow and the surrounding area post-famine. These people would have identified strongly with a club that wore its Irish identity on its sleeve and would have been less likely to go to Hampden to see the spiders, or to see any other team play. Rangers on the other hand were still an emerging club who had had some successes in Glasgow competitions and had finished joint-winners of the first ever league competition in 1891 alongside Dumbarton but were yet to enjoy sustained success. They also had not yet developed their own identity in the same way as Celtic had, and that would take occur in the early 20th century. QP's refusal to go was the opportunity that Rangers were looking for in order to get that sustained success. They had an advantage in being close to the shipyards too so that when workers finished their morning/lunchtime shift they'd be looking to go to the nearest game to relax and if Rangers were playing at home then Ibrox was perfect since they wouldn't have to walk too far. Over time QP's inability to attract better players due to refusing to pay any wages meant the better players would naturally be attracted to clubs that could pay them better, and Rangers and Celtic pulled away and the rivalry between the two sides was forged. In a timeline where the spiders went pro Rangers would still have won a reasonable amount of competitions in my view, but wouldn't have won nearly as many as they have in our timeline. I suspect they'd be at a similar level to one of the Edinburgh clubs now, albeit with a slightly larger stadium than theirs currently are. Worst-case, they'd have been similar to Partick Thistle or Third Lanark as Glasgow's huge population could sustain lots of clubs, just not three big clubs in my view. 

QP being professional back then would also have hindered Third Lanark as the advantage Thirds had in our timeline was they were the south side's professional team who could attract better players and could finish higher than QP more easily. Two professional teams in the south side would have meant fans had more of a dilemma of who to watch and QP's early dominance of the game would have attracted more people to watch them. Ultimately, it's so hard to say what would have happened exactly in the long term because it's so long ago and you can only predict what would have happened within a limited timeframe, say up to 20/30 years tops after these events occurred. It's always fun to try and plot what might have been, but the truth is we'll never know for certain. 

[Andy_K_97]

26 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

If Ryan Flynn had scored at Rugby Park, would we have just got relegated the next year cause Steven Pressley is an absolute fanny and a terrible, terrible manager?

Depends on how quickly your board figured out how bad he was I guess. If you'd got shot of him in say October or November you could have possibly attracted someone who could have kept you up. If you kept him it'd have been between Falkirk, St. Mirren and Hamilton and I think Accies might have saved your bacon that season as I remember them not being very good at all that season. They finished bottom with 26 points and St. Mirren were 11th on 33 points, so if you had aimed for 30 points as a target to keep you up it'd have been enough. As for us, I have absolutely no clue how we'd have got on in the first division. I suspect terribly. 

[wastecoatwilly]

17 minutes ago, RussellAnderson said:

The Queens Park one is interesting to me. Would it possibly have curbed the appeal of Celtic and Rangers, and kept football on a more even keel in this country? Or were the identity politics of those two clubs too strong to resist and QP would have fallen by the wayside like Third Lanark, or become a distant third like Partick Thistle? Genuinely interested if anyone has any insight on what might have happened.

Having 6 Glasgow clubs would've been interesting.

Edited February 10, 2020 by wastecoatwilly

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Having 6 Glasgow clubs would've been interesting.

Having 4 would've been better, if your shite and their pals never existed.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Sergeant Wilson

[pozbaird]

If Gary McAllister had scored the penalty against David Seaman at Wembley in the Euros, I can predict that I wouldn’t have put my boot through the TV.

[RussellAnderson]

Having 6 Glasgow clubs would've been interesting.

There’s a good question. What’s the largest professional club:population ratio of any city? London has hunners of clubs but tbf is quite large from what I’ve heard.

[wastecoatwilly]

2 minutes ago, RussellAnderson said:

 

There’s a good question. What’s the largest professional club:population ratio of any city? London has hunners of clubs but tbf is quite large from what I’ve heard.

 

Think there is 13 clubs in London with about 9 million,Glasgow has about 700,000. 

[ewan14]

5 hours ago, AyrTroopMajor said:

David Murray and Ayr United springs to mind...

EBT s , or whatever , at Somerset Park

[ewan14]

In the early seventies '' Turnbull Tornado '' John Brownlie did not suffer a leg break against East '' park the bus '' Fife and Hibs went on to win the league

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

What if?

[parsforlife]

Queen’s Park turning pro is the big one, had they done it at the right moment maybe becomes a Glasgow behemoth. 100k gates with rangers and Celtic struggling to make dents in that scenario they’d maybe be ok sized, 10k crowds and top 6 but not getting close to the top 2/3. This would have also impacted the other glssgow clubs/nearby towns.  They’d have probably found st bernard’s/reyton as the biggest rivals.

that would have probably left the gap even bigger at the top vs the rest. St. Bernard’s may have become the dominant Edinburgh side and been 2nd biggest if they didn’t get brought in for professionalism.  

another one to consider if one of the early Aberdeen sides had survived in the SFL, we’d probably be seeing Aberdeen as 2-3 small-medium sized sides and not a fairly large single club city.

Edited February 10, 2020 by parsforlife

[TheCelt67]

47 minutes ago, RussellAnderson said:

 

There’s a good question. What’s the largest professional club:population ratio of any city? London has hunners of clubs but tbf is quite large from what I’ve heard.

 

I'd imagine Dundee would be up there.  Two teams from a city of about 150,000.

[ewan14]

1 hour ago, Sugar_Army said:

FFS I am going to have sleepless nights now!  Where do I start?

If John Holt had not been deemed offside when Paul Sturrock struck to put United 2-1 up in the 1981 League Cup Final against Rangers would United have gone on to make it 3 in a row?

If Ralph Milne had netted his sitter in Rome at 0-0 would we have gone on to beat Liverpool in the 1984 European Cup final?

 

 

ifyergrannyhadbaws.com

 

1) an absolutely atrocious decision , the referee/ linesman was a #####

2) the you know whats would have won by hook or crook , in fact was the referee not bribed here as well

[johnnydun]

If Kyle Letheren had not made that astounding last gasp save from Dumbarton in 2014...

Hamilton would have won the title after their goal difference beating10-2 win against Morten.

Not that it would have made much difference to the league as Hamilton were also promoted through the play offs.

But the Morten tag would never have stuck, as we would not want to be reminded of this event, unless the Accies lads kept it up.

As it stands Morten will stick with us Dee's as it is a reminder to them of their failure to deny us the title.

And it really really bothers them.

[accies1874]

6 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

If Kyle Letheren had not made that astounding last gasp save from Dumbarton in 2014...

Hamilton would have won the title after their goal difference beating10-2 win against Morten.

Not that it would have made much difference to the league as Hamilton were also promoted through the play offs.

But the Morten tag would never have stuck, as we would not want to be reminded of this event, unless the Accies lads kept it up.

As it stands Morten will stick with us Dee's as it is a reminder to them of their failure to deny us the title.

And it really really bothers them.

If that happened and Dundee didn't then beat Falkirk or Hibs then there would have been no one to end our unbeaten run the following season and there is no doubt in my mind that we'd now be talking about Hamilton Academical Football Club as champions of Scotland. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by accies1874

[johnnydun]

If Giovanni De Steffano and Calum Melville actually had more than Monopoly money, we might of got to the dizzy heights of 5th.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, RussellAnderson said:

 

There’s a good question. What’s the largest professional club:population ratio of any city? London has hunners of clubs but tbf is quite large from what I’ve heard.

 

Brechin.