Pyramid

[AML67]

13 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

We might be dead but others will follow in our footsteps.

Why should the north and south Haven Holiday Leagues do a retro Rotten Burgh gig on the pyramid.

This old gem again ! Hold on , tell you what why doesn’t everyone just bend over backwards to appease the former Juniors who’ve finally decided their set up needed to be refreshed for the good of the / their game’ ! 
 

Everyone gets the strength of some of these teams but it simply doesn’t give anyone , you included , the right to just bounce in here and say ‘you know what , let’s punt the existing teams down a tier or 3’. Any future amalgamation may well happen and if or when it does fair enough folk will deal with it but until then spare everyone outside your bubble this old ‘everyone is pish nonsense’ , it does tend to get tedious after a while. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by AML67

[info]

A lot of good people have successfully kept the opportunity to play decent football available to players in a lightly populated  area for decades.Like every other area it has had it's good and not so good times but has kept going. The West have never had an integrated system before and it is good to see that highly populated  area finally doing something about this.Quality will find its way to the top if given the proper pathway but do not push anyone to the side to do it.  If the South Champions are not capable ,for whatever reason, of playing further up the Pyramid the playoff's will sort that out.   

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

14 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Why should the north and south Haven Holiday Leagues do a retro Rotten Burgh gig on the pyramid.

Because the point of the pyramid is to encourage clubs to continue and find their place on that pyramid. The SoS and NCL have done great jobs in keeping competitive football alive in rural areas and have a role to play in the pyramid and for the towns, villages and regions they represent.

[Tutankhamen]

Always beware league set ups that are closed shops with no relegation.

What's needed is a National League to feed into the SFL, that would probably finish off the caravan camp leagues.

[Tutankhamen]

1 hour ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Because the point of the pyramid is to encourage clubs to continue and find their place on that pyramid. The SoS and NCL have done great jobs in keeping competitive football alive in rural areas and have a role to play in the pyramid and for the towns, villages and regions they represent.

That might have had mileage 50 years ago but in 2020 trying to promote a caravan camp league on the Solway Firth as an equal to the WoSL is bizarre.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 hour ago, Tutankhamen said:

Always beware league set ups that are closed shops with no relegation.

What's needed is a National League to feed into the SFL, that would probably finish off the caravan camp leagues.

So we should beware the WoSFL and the EoSFL?

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

That might have had mileage 50 years ago but in 2020 trying to promote a caravan camp league on the Solway Firth as an equal to the WoSL is bizarre.

diddums

[honestly united]

27 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

That might have had mileage 50 years ago last year before the jooniers eventually came into the 20th century, but in 2020 trying to promote a caravan camp league on the Solway Firth as an equal to the WoSL is bizarre.

FTFY

[mcruic]

This thing about the South having kept a league going for years, lots of good people, etc. - the juniors (and amateurs and welfare) have done the same for their regions (many of which are rural), and for their towns and villages, and there are plenty of good people there too.  Many of the clubs in juniors/amateurs are just as old or older than those in the SoS or the North Caley. Just because the league has nominally senior status, doesn't mean it needs preferential treatment.

The point of the Pyramid is that leagues will ultimately be balanced based on playing strength, and not on any historical nostalgia.  The play-offs will not "sort that out" and teams will not "find their place", as the South of Scotland teams will be guaranteed Tier 6 status in perpetuum, even if many of the teams are worse than teams with Tier 7 status.  It doesn't matter how poorly they perform, they are guaranteed to remain in Tier 6...  Teams like Blantyre Vics, Arthurlie, Shotts Bon Accord, Neilston would be nominally Tier 7, while Creetown and Wigtown & Bladnoch have Tier 6 status.  Any new teams joining the South region can therefore start off at Tier 6, no matter how rubbish they may be, while other regions may need to start at Tier 8.  The South may deserve merit for keeping football going in the region for so long, but it doesn't merit having an easier route from the bottom of the pyramid than other regions.  

The South wouldn't be being "pushed aside" .  It would be being put in a realistic position based on the playing strength of its member clubs, and in any case, most of the teams would not be seeking promotion.

[Bad Wolf]

18 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Long term that will need to be looked at along with the Highland League.

Oh, I get now. You think the new WoSL, which has yet to kick a ball, should be on the same level as the HL, cos of all the unique specialness.  I wondered what you've been banging on about elsewhere. No chance.

 

And that was written before I read your Haven Holiday League pish. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Bad Wolf

[Tutankhamen]

22 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Oh, I get now. You think the new WoSL, which has yet to kick a ball, should be on the same level as the HL, cos of all the unique specialness.  I wondered what you've been banging on about elsewhere. No chance.

 

And that was written before I read your Haven Holiday League pish. 

We'll see.

The pyramid was sold on the basis of merit rather than geographical area. It might take a few years but it will come. If most SoSL teams aren't interested in moving up to the LL then step aside.

[weeredbook]

10 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

We'll see.

The pyramid was sold on the basis of merit rather than geographical area. It might take a few years but it will come. If most SoSL teams aren't interested in moving up to the LL then step aside.

The SoS is an amateur league .The idea of any of them going to the LL is crazy ,they just couldn't compete .

Whatever the set up SoS 's place is bottom of the pile .

 

[newcastle broon]

19 hours ago, mcruic said:

As an example, suppose Threave won the Tier 7 SoS, they would then go into the Tier 6 West league, where they might play the likes of Pollok, Kilwinning, etc.  They'd find it mighty hard to get out of that league I think, but they'd get to play at a higher level with less travelling.  The day-to-day for the SoS teams would be exactly the same, as they'd still be pretty much the same teams in the same league. 

 

SoS league is tier 6 so absolutely no reason Threave should even be thought of as winning a league at tier 7 unless of course they got relegated from the SoSFL. 

[Tutankhamen]

Just now, newcastle broon said:

SoS league is tier 6 so absolutely no reason Threave should even be thought of as winning a league at tier 7 unless of course they got relegated from the SoSFL. 

Relegated to where?

[newcastle broon]

1 minute ago, Tutankhamen said:

Relegated to where?

Exactly so tier 6 they shall remain

[Dev]

2 hours ago, mcruic said:

This thing about the South having kept a league going for years, lots of good people, etc. - the juniors (and amateurs and welfare) have done the same for their regions (many of which are rural), and for their towns and villages, and there are plenty of good people there too.  Many of the clubs in juniors/amateurs are just as old or older than those in the SoS or the North Caley. Just because the league has nominally senior status, doesn't mean it needs preferential treatment.

The point of the Pyramid is that leagues will ultimately be balanced based on playing strength, and not on any historical nostalgia.  The play-offs will not "sort that out" and teams will not "find their place", as the South of Scotland teams will be guaranteed Tier 6 status in perpetuum, even if many of the teams are worse than teams with Tier 7 status.  It doesn't matter how poorly they perform, they are guaranteed to remain in Tier 6...  Teams like Blantyre Vics, Arthurlie, Shotts Bon Accord, Neilston would be nominally Tier 7, while Creetown and Wigtown & Bladnoch have Tier 6 status.  Any new teams joining the South region can therefore start off at Tier 6, no matter how rubbish they may be, while other regions may need to start at Tier 8.  The South may deserve merit for keeping football going in the region for so long, but it doesn't merit having an easier route from the bottom of the pyramid than other regions.  

The South wouldn't be being "pushed aside" .  It would be being put in a realistic position based on the playing strength of its member clubs, and in any case, most of the teams would not be seeking promotion.

The point of any football or sporting pyramid, come to that, is to provide opportunity so that e.g. clubs and players etc are able to find their own level. If there is no viable alternative for clubs in the SoS and the NCL then they have to stay where they are geographically. This is not wealthy Suffolk you know where roads aren't so bad and where there's lots of affluent people who don't mind popping into London for a game!

Edited April 22, 2020 by Dev

[Tutankhamen]

40 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Exactly so tier 6 they shall remain

Or until a National League is formed.

[Countryman]

3 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

That might have had mileage 50 years ago but in 2020 trying to promote a caravan camp league on the Solway Firth as an equal to the WoSL is bizarre.

 

WOS = EOS = SOS = North Junior = NCL = Tayside Juniors

They are equivalent in the pyramid because the Greatest Grade on Earth had bosses what made a complete hash of everything, they let their sides down and failed to get their teams in at the highest level possibe, unlike the other leagues in Southern half of Scotland.

Leagues are where they are, there is no reason to change it. If any of the leagues that are in the equivalent position in the pyramid never have a strong enough side to be promoted, so what, it means the strongest teams from the equivalent leagues will be promoted to the highest level. It definately doesn't mean that that league has to be removed from having that opportunity, be that league be the WOS, EOS or SOS.

 

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

The point of any football or sporting pyramid, come to that, is to provide opportunity so that e.g. clubs and players etc are able to find their own level. If there is no viable alternative for clubs in the SoS and the NCL then they have to stay where they are geographically. This is not wealthy Suffolk you know where roads aren't so bad and where there's lots of affluent people who don't mind popping into London for a game!

Nobody is advocating them moving anywhere geographically.  I'm saying they should stay as they are (same clubs), but should be at Tier 7, based on their playing strength.

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, Countryman said:

 

WOS = EOS = SOS = North Junior = NCL = Tayside Juniors

They are equivalent in the pyramid because the Greatest Grade on Earth had bosses what made a complete hash of everything, they let their sides down and failed to get their teams in at the highest level possibe, unlike the other leagues in Southern half of Scotland.

Leagues are where they are, there is no reason to change it. If any of the leagues that are in the equivalent position in the pyramid never have a strong enough side to be promoted, so what, it means the strongest teams from the equivalent leagues will be promoted to the highest level. It definately doesn't mean that that league has to be removed from having that opportunity, be that league be the WOS, EOS or SOS.

 

But the best way to move forward is surely to forget how much of a hash certain people made of things, and concentrate on having feeder leagues of roughly equal strength. Otherwise, you get situations where lots of good teams have to wait maybe 3 or 4 years to get to the level they should be at now (like in the EoS, where the influx of East Juniors means that several of the better teams will be stuck in the EoS for years when they are better than many teams in the Lowland League already), caused by unnatural bottlenecks at the top and bottom of these leagues.  There should be 3 up 3 down to/from the Lowland League.

Edited April 22, 2020 by mcruic