Saints v Motherwell, Wednesday 12th February 2020

[thisGRAEME]

Good to see we're a clown car again, only took about a fortnight.

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Pretty much. Even at the weekend against St Mirren you saw Donnelly getting caught out in the same sort of area.

Is exactly what we did to Hearts and made Berra take it. We've essentially penned ourselves into a corner with the sale of Scott and departure of Cole, so we've got no alternative to this as centre-halves will eat up Long, Hylton and Aarons. Given that St. Mirren figured it out in the first game we played them and stopped us, it'll be some laugh to see us continue to do it against them for two consecutive games again that matter enormously. Season defining week for us, really.

Edited February 13, 2020 by thisGRAEME

[Ron Aldo]

Might be something for our club thread rather than this one (apologies Saints fans) but I've always thought the overall balance of our squad has been all wrong throughout Robinson's time in charge. Over the last couple of seasons we've gone from one extreme to another in terms of the type of player and style of play we've adopted.

The team throughout the 17/18 season and for the first half of the 18/19 season was full of big physical players who were about "winning the battle". The only downside was that when it came to actually playing football we were fairly hopeless. Once teams worked out how to play against us we were easily found out but didn't have any other options available to allow us to play a different style.

From January last year until now, Robinson has replaced the big physical players with guys who have a bit of pace, are skilful and can play nice tidy passes. The only downside is that when it comes to matching other teams physically and dealing with the dirty side of the game we're fairly hopeless. Once teams worked out how to play against us we were easily found out and don't have any other options available to allow us to play a different style.

[Kyle]

56 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Good to see we're a clown car again, only took about a fortnight.

Is exactly what we did to Hearts and made Berra take it. We've essentially penned ourselves into a corner with the sale of Scott and departure of Cole, so we've got no alternative to this as centre-halves will eat up Long, Hylton and Aarons. Given that St. Mirren figured it out in the first game we played them and stopped us, it'll be some laugh to see us continue to do it against them for two consecutive games again that matter enormously. Season defining week for us, really.

Tony Watt played well as a lone striker for us. He's alright in the air, good at holding up the ball and bringing others into play. He needs to get fitter but he'll fulfill that role in the team I'd imagine, but probably without Long's goal threat.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Kyle

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Ron Aldo said:

Might be something for our club thread rather than this one (apologies Saints fans) but I've always thought the overall balance of our squad has been all wrong throughout Robinson's time in charge. Over the last couple of seasons we've gone from one extreme to another in terms of the type of player and style of play we've adopted.

The team throughout the 17/18 season and for the first half of the 18/19 season was full of big physical players who were about "winning the battle". The only downside was that when it came to actually playing football we were fairly hopeless. Once teams worked out how to play against us we were easily found out but didn't have any other options available to allow us to play a different style.

From January last year until now, Robinson has replaced the big physical players with guys who have a bit of pace, are skilful and can play nice tidy passes. The only downside is that when it comes to matching other teams physically and dealing with the dirty side of the game we're fairly hopeless. Once teams worked out how to play against us we were easily found out and don't have any other options available to allow us to play a different style.

Agree with a lot of that (and also that it's probably one that's more for our thread) but since we're here - as @thisGRAEME alluded to we actually had a fairly decent balance with both Cole and Scott dropped into the side.

In fairness to Robinson I'd say that full package players are difficult to come by (though Dykes looks increasingly like he'd have been an ideal pick-up if the stories we were looking at him were true) and that sensational finish from Long last night means he's not in double figures for the season - so that's something. It's clear that we seem to have leaned heavily one way or the other in terms of forwards though.

The key issue for me is the number of goals that we're conceding that are simply a result of our own mistakes. We're basically just giving the opposition the ball at the moment.

The fact we don't have that out ball at the moment (at least until Watt shifts some timber) means that we're asking a lot of players like Donnelly, O'Hara and Polworth in terms of transitions through the middle of the park. Where in the first half of the season we were able to collect the 2nd balls off Cole and Scott 20 yards inside the opposition half and squeeze the game - now we're getting caught 10-15 yards inside our own half and we're coughing up chances left, right and centre as a result.

Robinson's post-match last night leaned quite heavily on not ripping everything up - and he's got a point in that respect - but it'll be interesting to see how he looks to identify and fix the issue as he can only work with the bodies he has in the building.

Edited February 13, 2020 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

Tony Watt played well as a lone striker for us. He's alright in the air, good at holding up the ball and bringing others into play. He needs to get fitter but he'll fulfill that role in the team I'd imagine, but probably without Long's goal threat.

I'd say that's probably right, but given that the only game that really matters in the immediate is the St. Mirren one (last weekend and next week), this is a problem for us.

[well fan for life]

Just popping in to lol at that dive from Manzinga.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Ron Aldo said:

The only downside is that when it comes to matching other teams physically and dealing with the dirty side of the game we're fairly hopeless. 

We weren't exactly physical last night, Wotherspoon, McCann and Holt are hardly Murray Davidson, and I cant even remember any particularly dirty fouls. If anything Motherwell players seemed so obsessed (looking at Hartley, Carroll and Donnelly) with trying to foul their opposing player they put themselves off their own game.

[Kyle]

I think Motherwell committed about twice the number of fouls that we did last night. The players were certainly much more willing to tug a shirt off the ball or to take a booking for a professional foul than our current crop are. I'm hoping we'll become more street wise and cynical as the players get more experienced as we do have a lot of young players in the team.

[Widge]

Ralston is always good for a booking through stupidity, not street wise play. The only couple who’ll take one for the team usually are Craig and Wotherspoon, McCann seems to be getting better at reading the play and hasn’t needed to as much.

Most of our yellow cards have come from referees booking Davidson for reputation and Callum Hendry for being petulant. [emoji23]

[Kyle]

38 minutes ago, Widge said:

Ralston is always good for a booking through stupidity, not street wise play. The only couple who’ll take one for the team usually are Craig and Wotherspoon, McCann seems to be getting better at reading the play and hasn’t needed to as much.

Most of our yellow cards have come from referees booking Davidson for reputation and Callum Hendry for being petulant.

Callum Hendry punting the ball at Motherwell's defender after committing his foul down at the corner flag in the first half was poetry in motion.

He'll be a hated figure at whatever level he ends up settling at as he's a pain in the arse and is petulant. Won't be long before he starts Macca style celebrations when he scores, probably not aimed at his dad.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

28 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I think Motherwell committed about twice the number of fouls that we did last night. The players were certainly much more willing to tug a shirt off the ball or to take a booking for a professional foul than our current crop are. I'm hoping we'll become more street wise and cynical as the players get more experienced as we do have a lot of young players in the team.

Fouls

Saints: 11.

Motherwell: 18

[Valentino Bolognese]

39 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I think Motherwell committed about twice the number of fouls that we did last night. The players were certainly much more willing to tug a shirt off the ball or to take a booking for a professional foul than our current crop are. I'm hoping we'll become more street wise and cynical as the players get more experienced as we do have a lot of young players in the team.

One of the good things about last night is that we simply didn't need to. Almost all the fouls we gave away were relatively benign and broke up the play, usually in a safe position. 

Motherwell seemed very physical. At the time I put that down to them realising that it was a weak, card-shy ref in the early stages of the game but on reflection I think it was also a lot to do with how much pressure we were creating. To me, it looked like in the second half Motherwell wanted to shithouse and take the draw. It's weird that people can still think of us as hammer-throwers when you look around the league and you see Livingston, Motherwell, Kilmarnock and (maybe less so now) Hearts. I'd would say that we have players who are good at drawing fouls. Motherwell may well benefit from that in Tony Watt and Aberdeen in Matty Kennedy. 

We've got players in our team that can easily cope with the filthy stuff - Ralston, Gordon, McCann, Hendy, Craig and of course Muzz are all pretty robust, and on limited viewing it looks like Butcher can handle it too. 

Anybody else think that Hendry looked a bit short of pace last night? Looked to me like the Ayr game might have have taken quite a lot of the lad that does a lot of running but isn't used to starting.

[tree house tam]

38 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Won't be long before he starts Macca style celebrations when he scores, probably not aimed at his dad.

Some of that will do for starters

And that

And that

Ending in that.

[nelsjfc]

One of the good things about last night is that we simply didn't need to. Almost all the fouls we gave away were relatively benign and broke up the play, usually in a safe position. 
Motherwell seemed very physical. At the time I put that down to them realising that it was a weak, card-shy ref in the early stages of the game but on reflection I think it was also a lot to do with how much pressure we were creating. To me, it looked like in the second half Motherwell wanted to shithouse and take the draw. It's weird that people can still think of us as hammer-throwers when you look around the league and you see Livingston, Motherwell, Kilmarnock and (maybe less so now) Hearts. I'd would say that we have players who are good at drawing fouls. Motherwell may well benefit from that in Tony Watt and Aberdeen in Matty Kennedy. 
We've got players in our team that can easily cope with the filthy stuff - Ralston, Gordon, McCann, Hendy, Craig and of course Muzz are all pretty robust, and on limited viewing it looks like Butcher can handle it too. 
Anybody else think that Hendry looked a bit short of pace last night? Looked to me like the Ayr game might have have taken quite a lot of the lad that does a lot of running but isn't used to starting.

Has hendry finished 90 minutes yet? He looked dead on his feet when he went off although he'd obviously done a pile of work.

Motherwell seemed to give a lot of silly fouls away last night in particular a couple on Hendry and Kane when they were going nowhere. Butcher looked a lot bigger than I expected although he the defensive side of his game didn't get really tested. Certainly doesn't look like he lacks confidence though.

Also, I'm not sure my heart can take Jason Kerr's little turns and dribbles for too much longer

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, nelsjfc said:

Has hendry finished 90 minutes yet? He looked dead on his feet when he went off although he'd obviously done a pile of work.

 

Pretty sure he's not. Thought he looked done in way before he was subbed. 

You can understand Tommy's thinking when he uses Kane as an irritation rather than a goal threat to soften up the centre backs before bringing a fresh Callum off the bench to score. It doens't work the other way round. 

[The Marly]

One of the good things about last night is that we simply didn't need to. Almost all the fouls we gave away were relatively benign and broke up the play, usually in a safe position. 
Motherwell seemed very physical. At the time I put that down to them realising that it was a weak, card-shy ref in the early stages of the game but on reflection I think it was also a lot to do with how much pressure we were creating. To me, it looked like in the second half Motherwell wanted to shithouse and take the draw. It's weird that people can still think of us as hammer-throwers when you look around the league and you see Livingston, Motherwell, Kilmarnock and (maybe less so now) Hearts. I'd would say that we have players who are good at drawing fouls. Motherwell may well benefit from that in Tony Watt and Aberdeen in Matty Kennedy. 
We've got players in our team that can easily cope with the filthy stuff - Ralston, Gordon, McCann, Hendy, Craig and of course Muzz are all pretty robust, and on limited viewing it looks like Butcher can handle it too. 
Anybody else think that Hendry looked a bit short of pace last night? Looked to me like the Ayr game might have have taken quite a lot of the lad that does a lot of running but isn't used to starting.

Don't know how you missed Ross County off the physical list. Easily the dirtiest team I've seen at McDiarmid this season.

[The Marly]

Pretty sure he's not. Thought he looked done in way before he was subbed. 
You can understand Tommy's thinking when he uses Kane as an irritation rather than a goal threat to soften up the centre backs before bringing a fresh Callum off the bench to score. It doens't work the other way round. 

It did last night [emoji16]

[Valentino Bolognese]

8 minutes ago, The Marly said:

It did last night

But only just!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(and apparently Kane didn't score)

[RandomGuy.]

2 hours ago, nelsjfc said:

Has hendry finished 90 minutes yet? 

 

This season he managed it in the cup, twice. Can't remember if hes managed any other season.

I think it's fairly clear now hes our best hope of a goal, he got a huge stroke of luck for the first goal but I dont think either striker scores that goal from there, hes ridiculously talented technically.

Always worth remembering with him he had two cruciate injuries before he joined us, so hes probably lost around 12-18 months of training/development in his youth career. If you're judging him against players with the same development time, youd be comparing him to a 20yo.

[akuram]

But only just!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(and apparently Kane didn't score)

Maybe not,maybe yes, doesn’t matter, what does is he got in the position where he put the defender under such pressure that it resulted in the goal.
The goal is all that is important.
He deserves the credit of the goal.