West Region Development/Reserve League

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 28/01/2020 at 20:45, parkcircus said:

This topic was raised at the last West Region meeting and a following email was sent out to see who was interested.

The upcoming problem for clubs with a youth pathway is what happens after U21s

Next season will be the last year of our U21s and the coaches would like to keep the squad together the only current option is to move to the amateur leagues but this isn’t a great solution for the club as there’s no loaning or dual contract options available between the Juniors, Youth and Amateur leagues.

There are a few clubs that play in the same U21s league as ourselves, would they be interested in forming a West Region Development League?

An idea of how it could work:

League formed below current League 2

Promotion/Relegation of 1 Place

Clubs handle administration of both teams

Separate team registrations

Players can be loaned and dual contracted to both teams.

Ie a first player coming back from injury could be loaned to the Dev team, a player under 21 in the Dev team is dual contracted

Players over 21 in the Dev team can be loaned to the 1st team

Dev teams are included in the Scottish Cup, Sectional Cup and West/Central Cups

Two kickoff time options, 

Friday night for clubs with Astro/lights, Saturday 12pm on grass, other pitch options can be considered. Ie Largs play on a Friday night at Inverclyde rather than home ground.
 

Just an idea, let the tearing apart behind.

 

Reading this with interest and understand where your coming from and the reasons within and I hope there is more people with their views on a potential league for youth teams that help their senior partners.

Couple of things have to say.

A lot of academies who have Under 21 teams, Pollok, Clydebank, Rossvale to name but a few are all connected one way or another with their junior partners but they cannot join a development league until their first team becomes senior or joins the pyramid system, the current development league is Under 20 which allows boys at U19s or younger to participate, u21 and first team players coming back from injury or needing match sharpness,
 

There are a few youth academies already addressing the issue that there maybe a development league starting if and when the junior teams join the Seniors / Pyramid system.
If a WOS senior league starts then I'm sure there will be enough youth teams to fill the league and the league is sure to have the same as the rest of the seniors leagues each having an U20 development squad with first team players who are coming back from injury allowed to participate in the game with the U20s to bring them back to fitness.

If the academies do it right its not the U21s that should be the focus, its the U19s, the reason well as the team grows through the years of youth football they should be able to attract the attention of the first team/ junior team and things put in place like training on different days than the first team, (on some occasions, one day different and one day training beside the first team). Why this, well it allows any |U19s lad who is progressing fast to be allowed to come into the first team training, it allows the first team management to assess the boy and help with his development also the first team management know that at times they came come down to the training sessions and watch the lads and coach's and get an understanding of what they do and sometimes come in and give their experience to the sessions. The same should be on the u19s games, either  a Friday or Sunday.   Regarding an Under 21s, if the academy are doing it the right way then the first team should already know about all the players previously from last years U19s and the U21s are fine to train at the same day as the firstteam, hopefully beside them and play their games on the same day.

A development squad usually consists or U19s players, U21 players and first team players getting match sharpness/fitness up so there is a lot of swapping about and it has to be organised well with a good structure and all the coaches interacting. You will always get some U21 teams who are exceptional and still together and it would be great that they stay together but life changes so we have to get on with it but these teams once they finish at U21s will either split up with lads going to different teams at different levels.

In regards to development teams if well organised and well funded then there should be no problem but you will have some with issues of travelling, trying to find parks on a Friday night as right now, most lets are used on a Friday and  in Glasgow alone there is a huge Over 35s league where the lads play on a Friday.  I've seen a few comments about pricing saying it the same but not every junior team / Academy owns their park and pricing is different for example East Dumbartonshire class U19s and U21s as adults and therefore charge them adult prices. which means the U19s have to fork out £140 to play a game of football and if normally about £90 for two training nights with only a third of the park, meaning when at home £230 and away £110. So if not funded well or organised when teams get to U19s or U21s there are difficulties.
Regarding crowds, if promoted the right way there is end to the size of crowds coming to the youth games, couple of year ago our Pollok U19s played Clydebank U19s for the u19s league with just under a 400 crowd but this was something we had worked on promoting the youth team with many of the first teams fans coming to watch our games including the first team management. Clydebank U19s now play at holm park with great crowds on a Friday with a fantastic team but as far as I remember when coaching Clydebank U19s last year we went through the Clydebank youth teams I don't remember seeing an U17 team operating who will then step into U19s next season so all academies have work to have ages in each year to have a continuous flow of well developed teams and players.

Pollok already applied for their youth team to join the development squad a couple of years ago, Rossvale recently applied to the junior league to have an U23 squad join the juniors at the bottom league without promotion and heard a few other junior teams have applied similarly but all have been knocked back.

 

Above are a couple of things in my experience of working with U19s /U21s and younger ages of youth football and being part of pathway to the first team.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[parkcircus]

The juniors as an association are on its arse, trying to hold the leagues together from breaking up, the East’s already gone, how’s the time to try new things because see if it doesn’t work you just bin it, but doing nothing is dangerous.

[Burnie_man]

Well if things go well today, west clubs would have the opportunity to join the Lowland U20 Development League where every signed player is also classed as part of the senior squad, so they're interchangable, with over age players allowed upto 6 appearances for the U20 as well.

U21 football is pretty much disappearing.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Burnie_man

[Benny Factor]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Well if things go well today, west clubs would have the opportunity to join the Lowland U20 Development League where every signed player is also classed as part of the senior squad, so they're interchangable, with over age players allowed upto 6 appearances for the U20 as well.

U21 football is pretty much disappearing.

U21 football is disappearing for a few reasons, the first one being that there will be a number of boys already  playing in the development league that you mention and because of the lack of money in the junior game their squads are littered with younger boys who would have been playing 21's, although if your good enough then your old enough. It also doesn't help that the 21's also play on a Saturday afternoon.  

The development league is a great opportunity for clubs to ensure that they are capturing good boys coming through, however meeting the criteria may be difficult for a lot of clubs wanting to go down this route. 

[BTID]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Well if things go well today, west clubs would have the opportunity to join the Lowland U20 Development League where every signed player is also classed as part of the senior squad, so they're interchangable, with over age players allowed upto 6 appearances for the U20 as well.

U21 football is pretty much disappearing.

Keep us posted Burnie man very interested To hear what the outcome is. Like I say the 20s has flaws yes they are aligned with first team but the other way it doesn’t really allow progression from grassroots u19 or u17 and that’s a SFA/SYFA problem that should be fixed. 
 

Ultimately we all agree something has to be done. We also need a holistic approach not to just look out for the few ambitious players who make the step up. There has to be a route to stay in football beyond u20. 

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, BTID said:

Keep us posted Burnie man very interested To hear what the outcome is. Like I say the 20s has flaws yes they are aligned with first team but the other way it doesn’t really allow progression from grassroots u19 or u17 and that’s a SFA/SYFA problem that should be fixed. 
 

Ultimately we all agree something has to be done. We also need a holistic approach not to just look out for the few ambitious players who make the step up. There has to be a route to stay in football beyond u20. 

You can play SYFA registered trialists for your U20's with permission of parent team, the Lowland League have confirmation of that, although there was something put out a few weeks back by the SERYFA saying their clubs weren't allowed to let their players do that.   I believe the LL are seeking clarity, but there is nothing stopping U20's fielding SYFA trialists as things stand.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You can play SYFA registered trialists for your U20's with permission of parent team, the Lowland League have confirmation of that, although there was something put out a few weeks back by the SERYFA saying their clubs weren't allowed to let their players do that.   I believe the LL are seeking clarity, but there is nothing stopping U20's fielding SYFA trialists as things stand.

Right now, Dunipace have and u19s team and development team and obviously the first team, the U19s sometimes play for the U20 development squad and sometimes straight tot the first team, this is how it should be

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Right now, Dunipace have and u19s team and development team and obviously the first team, the U19s sometimes play for the U20 development squad and sometimes straight tot the first team, this is how it should be

Correct.

[BTID]

Cheers lads did not think this was the case. Would they have to be released though to be a trialist or is SYFA players seen as unsigned ?

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, BTID said:

Cheers lads did not think this was the case. Would they have to be released though to be a trialist or is SYFA players seen as unsigned ?

They play as a trialist with permission from their U19/17/16 team. Nobody needs released.

Quite why the SERYFA put this on their website I don't know, doesn't do anything for the player pathway, but the LL seem to believe they have the necessary permission from the SYFA.

"Important Notice - Re playing U20s E O S Lowland League

All players, teams and secretarys should note that ANY PLAYER registered to play for any SERYFA team at any age group CANNOT play as a trialist for any U20's E O S Lowland League team. It is an offence and breach of SYFA rules "

[parkcircus]

Cheers for the info, yes, today might hold the answer, but then again it might get kicked into the long grass.....again

The LL East/West was for two years time, no one knows what the SFA will bring in and when.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

I don't think its a big thing as in I believe a development league will happen in the west a sin a development squad and the lowland one will continue but as its youths you might district the league.  I do think that if an when the juniors join or there's a WOS division then possible a development league might start the same time but I doubt it as too many junior committee will be getting their house in order but I definitely expect a WOS youth league to start the following year of the Junior senior inclusion.
|For example a lowland league as it stands and maybe a EOSY and a WOSY, so that too many don't need to travel that far.  You can have the lowland stay the way it is, the development league that it or you can just change the lowland league into East and West.

Sorry if I am wrong on the following but, I will say that the current duel contracts exists between junior and youth players from the syfa and does not include any pro youth players or youth senior players. SO once a junior team joins the senior ranks the youth team can be added into the development league and under certain rulers towards the first team and then can only be loaned out to other clubs.

[Guest]

Having a 20s team alone, even for a club without the full set up yet, is greatly beneficial both ways. Gets young guys experience in the first team and develop their understanding and general play, but also allows first team players to play over age in the 20s upto 6 times per season. It has been a godsend for us as a club.

Right now, Dunipace have and u19s team and development team and obviously the first team, the U19s sometimes play for the U20 development squad and sometimes straight tot the first team, this is how it should be

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

They play as a trialist with permission from their U19/17/16 team. Nobody needs released.

Quite why the SERYFA put this on their website I don't know, doesn't do anything for the player pathway, but the LL seem to believe they have the necessary permission from the SYFA.

"Important Notice - Re playing U20s E O S Lowland League

All players, teams and secretarys should note that ANY PLAYER registered to play for any SERYFA team at any age group CANNOT play as a trialist for any U20's E O S Lowland League team. It is an offence and breach of SYFA rules "

I'm not surprised at this, the way the league has acted. I would say to the league get your finger out your ass and sort it then so that youths can play as a trialist, you are holding back the youth  development.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

Just a note they only get a certain amount of games in the first team. That being said, having a 20s team alone, even for a club without the full set up yet, is greatly beneficial both ways. Gets young guys experience in the first team and develop their understanding and general play, but also allows first team players to play over age in the 20s upto 6 times per season. It has been a godsend for us as a club.

yip agreeing with the certain amount of games but some of these boys can be found to be a find and hold down a place.  We did exact same at Pollok Academy with our U19s. We spent 6 months telling the manager about this lad Sena that hes going to be a player and will be good enough to hold down a first team place, the manager didn't listen to us,  After 6 month they brought him into training, and then signed him and he only played 10 games for Pollok then Partick thistle came in for him.  The whole point we do this at youth level is to get the lads exposure and experience, playing , training with the first team and take it from there and when he comes back down to the U19s you see him change, his attitude, more professional, everything is done quicker which then rubs off on the rest of the U19s players.

[LeeKRR1878]

This. [emoji23]
I have spoken to various clubs at 19s 21s etc and totally sympathise with good teams that feel something might come to an end. It is clear to me we spend so much time and effort into creating a love for the game at such an early age. 
 
When it gets to 16 and above, it almost seems like the pathway to retaining players at all levels just evaporates. As noted there is a real opportunity for a lot of top west junior clubs to create a proper development programme. This would create a good structure, environment, games played at good facilities and committed to long term development. 
 
Regards to the league 3 idea, I kind of think that’s where the reserve league comes in if that’s what your interested in. Notice East Kilbride done this and scrapped their u20s. I don’t think we should rule out any player of any age, there are always late developers even into their 20s. 
 
That’s probably where a full community model is needed. The 16/17 year olds might require something to suit their needs as that’s a jump from u17 to u20. After u20 those not quite signed up on contracts could still have potential if playing at a good level so some sort of strong amateur or reserve league probably needs to be in place. 
 
 
 

Regarding your 2nd comment, I touched on this on the Youth forum (16 above being hard to retain).

I think this becomes a difficult age to retain players simply due to today's lifestyle. Many jobs (if not most) are no longer a Mon-Fri 9-5 and work on rota basis or shifts which include weekends too unfortunately. Most boys will start an apprenticeship at 16 and means making games on a Saturday or Sunday then becomes difficult so they hardly get a run of games and end up just quitting altogether.

I've heard before people saying "well why can't they work something out with their gaffer to get game days off?" Well, unfortunately, "buisness needs come first" to many bosses.

When they reach 18 alot of boys would prefer to go out on a Friday and Saturday night rather than play a game of football on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon sadly.

From my own experiences I've found this as I stopped playing football when I was 17 for an under 21s team because I started an apprenticeship and was required to work 3 Saturdays a month and every second Sunday. Many of my mates chucked it aswell because they preferred going out bevvying.

Can it be fixed? I believe so. For me the way forward for youth football is Friday night football. If any development league was to be properly discussed then I think that would be the best way to go.

[crfc]

This topic was raised at the last West Region meeting and a following email was sent out to see who was interested.
The upcoming problem for clubs with a youth pathway is what happens after U21s
Next season will be the last year of our U21s and the coaches would like to keep the squad together the only current option is to move to the amateur leagues but this isn’t a great solution for the club as there’s no loaning or dual contract options available between the Juniors, Youth and Amateur leagues.
There are a few clubs that play in the same U21s league as ourselves, would they be interested in forming a West Region Development League?
An idea of how it could work:

League formed below current League 2

Promotion/Relegation of 1 Place

Clubs handle administration of both teams

Separate team registrations

Players can be loaned and dual contracted to both teams.

Ie a first player coming back from injury could be loaned to the Dev team, a player under 21 in the Dev team is dual contracted

Players over 21 in the Dev team can be loaned to the 1st team

Dev teams are included in the Scottish Cup, Sectional Cup and West/Central Cups

Two kickoff time options, 

Friday night for clubs with Astro/lights, Saturday 12pm on grass, other pitch options can be considered. Ie Largs play on a Friday night at Inverclyde rather than home ground.
 

Just an idea, let the tearing apart behind.

 

Is this similar to what the old firm wanted a few seasons back with the development squads playing in the lower leagues just like they do with the tunnocks cup at the moment .

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 29/01/2020 at 10:40, Bestsinceslicebread said:

 

A lot of academies who have Under 21 teams, Pollok, Clydebank, Rossvale to name but a few are all connected one way or another with their junior partners but they cannot join a development league until their first team becomes senior or joins the pyramid system, the current development league is Under 20 which allows boys at U19s or younger to participate, U21 and first team players coming back from injury or needing match sharpness,
 

 

Well folks, anyone who was hoping that a youth team's Junior partner was joining the senior ranks which would allow their youth team to start a development team have hit a brick wall and the Junior bosses again ruled out the juniors joining the senior ranks.  The only way this will not happen is that each junior team decides for themselves to either join the senior /pyramid system off their own back by going it alone

Edited January 30, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread
Spelling

[parkcircus]

6 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Well folks, anyone who was hoping that a youth team's Junior partner was joining the senior ranks which would allow their youth team to start a development team have hit a brick wall and the Junior bosses again ruled out the juniors joining the senior ranks.  The only way this will not happen is that each junior team decides for themselves to either join the senior /pyramid system off their own back by going it alone

I saw that coming but didn’t think it be a complete end to the the matters

[Bestsinceslicebread]

58 minutes ago, parkcircus said:

I saw that coming but didn’t think it be a complete end to the the matters

Yes its the end of any junior teams potential development squad unless that said junior teams joins the senior / pyramid ranks and thus their academy is then allowed to join the development league.  We applied when at Pollok Academy with the Under 19s (season 2017/18) to join the development league as we had teams below that we could help reach the same standard and shot down with flames by the hierarchy from the development stating, (quite rightly, under current rules), that to join the development league the main thing is the first team must be in the senior ranks so it was a washout even though most o those players went onto the level of either junior or senior and only a cpl went to u21s.

 

So if any junior team, say Clydebank, Kilwinning decide to say stuff this and league the junior ranks for the senior /pyramid system then they are allowed to produced a development squad for inclusion in the development league.  There is a lot of finer details but that is, in reality, the just of it all

Edited January 30, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread