Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Bert Raccoon]

18 minutes ago, Elixir said:

Do many in the NHS want the public to loathe it? Truly fantastic communications from our 'heroes'!

 

May as well privatise it then, eh?

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, Elixir said:

Do many in the NHS want the public to loathe it? Truly fantastic communications from our 'heroes'!

 

I have sympathy for people who cannot see their GP because they aren't doing face to face appointments, and have no access to a drop in centre.

What are people meant to do if the only access they have to medical help is A&E?

The entire system is broken and needs massively overhauled.

[Empty It]

I've always thought of A&E to be life threatening injuries and minor injuries for everything else. Although guaranteed there will be someone on their way to A&E right now with their ingrown toenail.

[Elixir]

6 minutes ago, Bert Raccoon said:

May as well privatise it then, eh?

If prominent NHS figures continue to want the health service and their lives to operate more smoothly by now routinely calling for more restrictions on people's civil liberties rather than for the necessary funding, support, and change it actually needs, then I couldn't care less at this point. Perhaps people on 'the left' might want to try arguing this point as well?

 

[Abdul_Latif]

1 minute ago, Empty It said:

I've always thought of A&E to be life threatening injuries and minor injuries for everything else

The problem is not what you see it as, it’s the dangerous message of telling people to stay away.

Someone suffering a minor stroke (though unaware that is the cause) may now not go to A&E cause they feel like a burden.

This shit from the NHS has to stop. 
 

Telling the non medically qualified general population to stay away unless it’s life threatening, which they cannot even assess themselves, is irresponsible in the extreme. 

[Empty It]

The problem is not what you see it as, it’s the dangerous message of telling people to stay away.
Someone suffering a minor stroke (though unaware that is the cause) may now not go to A&E cause they feel like a burden.
This shit from the NHS has to stop. 
 
Telling the non medically qualified general population to stay away unless it’s life threatening, which they cannot even assess themselves, is irresponsible in the extreme. 

It's a fair point, all the whinging from the NHS is getting very tedious. It probably is underfunded but more mismanaged than under funded.

[Elixir]

No doubt the clowns turning up to A&E pished, with a stubbed toe, wee Ethan has a tempature xx, are a big issue. It requires education and clear communication.

Broken arms/legs and detached retinas technically aren't life threatening. Probably best to get them checked out though and not suggest staying away from A&E, imo.

[Michael W]

Whilst I totally agree that A&E departments are often abused, that type of communication isn't helpful. You will deter people that are genuinely unwell and don't want to burden the healthcare system. This will predictably end terribly in some cases. 

A broken ankle or arm etc isn't life threatening. When can you go in if this happens to you? Maybe you've just sprained your ankle severely, but how do you know that you haven't broken it or fractured it too? If you don't get it seen to, you make things worse for yourself. 

Let's say you have severe pain in your stomach region and the painkillers haven't shifted it. Is it appendicitis? Who knows, you're not a doctor. Do you go in or not? Probably isn't the worst case thing that could kill you if untreated, right? 

I may be being slightly obtuse here, but taking that message at face value, I read it as: don't bother unless you will die without treatment. The lay population is not medically qualified and is not in a position to make such calls. There are some obvious things that don't require A&E attention like minor scrapes etc, and such people really ought to be told to piss off if they turn up. But you're going to leave some people in very critical states telling them not to show up unless their life is in danger - how is a lay person going to know this in many circumstances unless they are quite obviously having a heart attack? 

 

[The Moonster]

56 minutes ago, Elixir said:

Do many in the NHS want the public to loathe it? Truly fantastic communications from our 'heroes'!

 

 

24 minutes ago, Elixir said:

If prominent NHS figures continue to want the health service and their lives to operate more smoothly by now routinely calling for more restrictions on people's civil liberties rather than for the necessary funding, support, and change it actually needs, then I couldn't care less at this point. Perhaps people on 'the left' might want to try arguing this point as well?

 

You seem to be focussing on the NHS workers rather than the government who funds and resources them. Their services aren't struggling because too many folk are turning up with trivial things at A&E, they're struggling because they've been terribly understaffed and underfunded for years and years. If NHS Lothian only have resources left to deal with life threatening injuries then that is a massive failure of government. You're kidding yourself on if you're suggesting that NHS workers (or people on "the left") aren't asking for funding, support or change. 

[The Moonster]

25 minutes ago, Empty It said:

 It probably is underfunded but more mismanaged than under funded.

Tories are pishing themselves everywhere reading this. 

[Empty It]

Tories are pishing themselves everywhere reading this. 

So the NHS isn't seriously mismanaged?

[hk blues]

20 minutes ago, Michael W said:

I may be being slightly obtuse here, but taking that message at face value, I read it as: don't bother unless you will die without treatment.

On one hand, of course you're being obtuse, but on the other your interpretation is exactly what it's saying.  The message doesn't leave much room for interpretation - if you've broken your leg stay away.  Now, most of us would ignore the warning and go anyway but there is a percentage of folk who will take it as read.

 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Empty It said:

So the NHS isn't seriously mismanaged?

That wasn't what you said, you said it was more a case of mismanagement than underfunding. It's exactly the narrative Tories want, "NHS isn't fit for purpose" which is why they keep underfunding it and letting it struggle. Do you think the NHS would still be mismanaged if it was properly funded?

[welshbairn]

The NHS can't be sorted without massively rethinking social care for the elderly, either families taking far more responsibility or a big increase in taxes and properties sold to pay for it rather than being inherited. And reversing restrictions on EU immigration to staff it.

[Empty It]

That wasn't what you said, you said it was more a case of mismanagement than underfunding. It's exactly the narrative Tories want, "NHS isn't fit for purpose" which is why they keep underfunding it and letting it struggle. Do you think the NHS would still be mismanaged if it was properly funded?

Yes it would still be mismanaged, until they clear out the upper management of the NHS it will be in trouble. I also agree that the tories stripping it back to less than minimal funding has had a massive detrimental impact on the NHS which is what they want so they can sell it on to one of their mates.

[Todd_is_God]

42 minutes ago, Bert Raccoon said:

May as well privatise it then, eh?

This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer.

How do the likes of Germany fund their health system, and what, if any, point of access costs are there to users?

Obviously the US style system is completely undesirable, but I think it's fair to say that the current UK model is now broken beyond repair, to the point the system it is unable to provide an adequate level of care across the board.

Whilst it is great that it is "free" to use, having to wait 2-3 weeks to see a GP isn't a great system. There has to be something in-between.

The problem is, even if it is minor, any additional costs to the public associated with a change of model will cause uproar because while we are very good at complaining and wanting higher wages for the likes of NHS staff and improvement to public services in general, the idea that we might have to pay more in taxes for this seems off-limits.

[Elixir]

10 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

You seem to be focussing on the NHS workers rather than the government who funds and resources them. Their services aren't struggling because too many folk are turning up with trivial things at A&E, they're struggling because they've been terribly understaffed and underfunded for years and years. If NHS Lothian only have resources left to deal with life threatening injuries then that is a massive failure of government. You're kidding yourself on if you're suggesting that NHS workers (or people on "the left") aren't asking for funding, support or change. 

So... how about we hear about that from the people with influence that are constantly in the media, rather than them trying to normalise restrictions on our lives instead?

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer.

How do the likes of Germany fund their health system, and what, if any, point of access costs are there to users?

Obviously the US style system is completely undesirable, but I think it's fair to say that the current UK model is now broken beyond repair, to the point the system it is unable to provide an adequate level of care across the board.

Whilst it is great that it is "free" to use, having to wait 2-3 weeks to see a GP isn't a great system. There has to be something in-between.

The problem is, even if it is minor, any additional costs to the public associated with a change of model will cause uproar because while we are very good at complaining and wanting higher wages for the likes of NHS staff and improvement to public services in general, the idea that we might have to pay more in taxes for this seems off-limits.

Everyone is required by law to have health insurance.  There's a government run scheme and also supplemental private schemes.  No idea how much they cost per month but I'm pretty sure you then don't pay anything at point of use.

I did read somewhere (admittedly this was a while ago) that they don't bother measuring waiting lists as they're so short as to be inconsequential.

[Elixir]

3 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer.

How do the likes of Germany fund their health system, and what, if any, point of access costs are there to users?

Obviously the US style system is completely undesirable, but I think it's fair to say that the current UK model is now broken beyond repair, to the point the system it is unable to provide an adequate level of care across the board.

Whilst it is great that it is "free" to use, having to wait 2-3 weeks to see a GP isn't a great system. There has to be something in-between.

The problem is, even if it is minor, any additional costs to the public associated with a change of model will cause uproar because while we are very good at complaining and wanting higher wages for the likes of NHS staff and improvement to public services in general, the idea that we might have to pay more in taxes for this seems off-limits.

Likewise how exactly does the NHS differ to the health services seen in i.e. the Nordics. Is it purely down to a lack of funding, or is it something else? Has there been the same reports of winter crises in these places every year since inception?

Whatever it is, the answer is not and never will be 'let's mandate restrictions on the general public whenever there is perceived pressure' - outside of likely once in a century events like the start of this pandemic, of course.

[The Moonster]

5 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Yes it would still be mismanaged, until they clear out the upper management of the NHS it will be in trouble. 

By funding and resourcing it properly management would be overhauled though. 

3 minutes ago, Elixir said:

So... how about we hear about that from the people with influence that are constantly in the media, rather than them trying to normalise restrictions on our lives instead?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/02/nhs-needs-10bn-annual-boost-to-tackle-backlog-and-covid-cost

"NHS frontline representatives warn we need a minimum of £10bn"

That's from September and took me 10 seconds to find. I think you see what you want to see with this stuff.