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[Abdul_Latif]

2 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

What exactly does "a legitimate second pro-independence party" actually mean? 

I'm talking in terms of policy, ideology etc

I mean, the Greens are pro-Indi and already pretty legit given that they're the 4th biggest party in Holyrood.

Where else is there to go? A right of centre pro-Indi lot is kind of a contradiction, would be unlikely to gain any traction because right of centre is already catered for, and the overwhelming majority of pro-indi voters appear to be centrists or left of centre in their outlook. Centrist and Left is already represented by well established parties, so what else is there other than coming at it from a totally left-field approach of being a bunch of extremists on some niche issue? i.e. Alba and their (unintentional, I think) somewhat transphobic vibes

SSP were pro-Indi were they not? That's died on it's arse.

I do think that for Scottish Labour's sake they are eventually going to have to adopt at worst a neutral, pragmatic stance on the issue of Independence, but that's more to do with saving any future prospects of SLAB in the interim, rather than thinking it would lead to some sort of landslide towards a pro-indi vote in a referendum. I think all it would really achieve might be some sort of  small slide back toward Labour from disgruntled SNP voters, but I don't think it would be all that significant, and in terms of whether or not it would bolster the overall pro-Indi movement, I think it just as likely SLAB would lose a degree of support due to disgruntled old Labour types dumping them because of the shift away from a strident pro-UK stance.

So what form would this new party take, beyond re-hashing the 'Indi, but more urgently' message Alba started off with before they went full nutjob?

 

There’s a lot to digest here and much of it I wholeheartedly agree with.

Part of the issue with the SNP, as I see It is that although they are centre left, they seem to be trying too hard please everyone and are in turn managing to rile up all sections of their support about something. 
 

Their primary function of achieving independence is being watered down by the need to administer a government, which they are failing to do effectively. Because of this they risk losing supporters who have life long followed them due to Indy campaigning. This group of people are waking up and simply cannot accept the SNPs level of incompetence at government level.

It’s taken some time, much longer than I thought it might, but the honeymoon appears to be over and without a big shake from top to bottom and new dynamic leadership etc, I can see membership reducing in larger numbers than they would like.

These people are not going to abandon politics, nor their quest for Indy, but they need a new vehicle for it. What that looks like, well that’s still to be seen, but it’s certainly not Alba or a reincarnation of a hardcore Socialist party.

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Abdul_Latif

[ICTChris]

 

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

What exactly does "a legitimate second pro-independence party" actually mean? 

I'm talking in terms of policy, ideology etc

I mean, the Greens are pro-Indi and already pretty legit given that they're the 4th biggest party in Holyrood.

Where else is there to go? A right of centre pro-Indi lot is kind of a contradiction, would be unlikely to gain any traction because right of centre is already catered for, and the overwhelming majority of pro-indi voters appear to be centrists or left of centre in their outlook. Centrist and Left is already represented by well established parties, so what else is there other than coming at it from a totally left-field approach of being a bunch of extremists on some niche issue? i.e. Alba and their (unintentional, I think) somewhat transphobic vibes

SSP were pro-Indi were they not? That's died on it's arse.

I do think that for Scottish Labour's sake they are eventually going to have to adopt at worst a neutral, pragmatic stance on the issue of Independence, but that's more to do with saving any future prospects of SLAB in the interim, rather than thinking it would lead to some sort of landslide towards a pro-indi vote in a referendum. I think all it would really achieve might be some sort of  small slide back toward Labour from disgruntled SNP voters, but I don't think it would be all that significant, and in terms of whether or not it would bolster the overall pro-Indi movement, I think it just as likely SLAB would lose a degree of support due to disgruntled old Labour types dumping them because of the shift away from a strident pro-UK stance.

So what form would this new party take, beyond re-hashing the 'Indi, but more urgently' message Alba started off with before they went full nutjob?

 

Yip, good post.

The SNP already occupies the only position that would really allow any pro independence party to enjoy any electoral success.  A rival that did better than Alba would just open the door for Tories to do better here anyway.

I think there's a tendency on here to overlook the fact that an awful lot of SNP support over the last fifteen years has come from people who are actually a bit ambivalent about independence, but on balance, favour it.  That 'favouring it' owes a lot to the Tory governments we've had in Westminster for most of that period.  Something Centre Left is therefore pitched appropriately for that sizeable constituency.   

Questions are inevitably being asked now about how effectively, or otherwise, they're governing.  That rightly puts them under pressure, but I just don't see how it clears the way for a new party.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Monkey Tennis

[Granny Danger]

Voting SNP is the only pathway to second Independence Referendum and then (hopefully) to Independence.

Within a couple of years of Independence the SNP will cease to exist and the electorate of Scotland will have a range of political parties to choose from covering the whole gamut of political views.

Alternately people can vote for someone else/abstain, remain in the U.K. and be governed by Tories.  That’s their choice.

Of course people voting for the Scottish Greens is perfectly acceptable though the Tories will try to ignore this as a vote in favour of Independence.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Granny Danger

[welshbairn]

I think the only new UK parties to have any success in the last hundred years have been the DUP and the Alliance party in Northern Ireland.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think the only new UK parties to have any success in the last hundred years have been the DUP and the Alliance party in Northern Ireland.

Regrettably, it could be argued that UKip were phenomenally successful.

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Regrettably, it could be argued that UKip were phenomenally successful.

True, forgot about them. Never took hold in general elections though.

The Rev Campbell seems to think that an anti woke rightwing populist indy party is the way to go. I do hope not.

Edited August 7, 2021 by welshbairn

[Marshmallo]

UKIP essentially won general elections by proxy by moving the Tories further right.

[Dawson Park Boy]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Regrettably, it could be argued that UKip were phenomenally successful.

And the Brexit Party.

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, welshbairn said:

True, forgot about them. Never took hold in general elections though.

You're right that in a traditional electoral sense, they achieved nothing.

However, in terms of achieving their ultimate objective, they'd be hard to beat.  They managed to pressure and shift the Tory party sufficiently, to get there, even if it meant sacrificing themselves.

They were more of a Pressure Group than a party in truth.  The problem is that it worked.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

And the Brexit Party.

UKIP 2.0

[Marshmallo]

 

 

[sparky88]

A pro independence party with no socioeconomic policies whatsoever is what's needed. A vote for that party would mean nothing else other than you want independence, but also aren't forced to vote for the '3 Ds' party. 

 

[gav-ffc]

 

/made it up.

[Zetterlund]

4 minutes ago, gav-ffc said:

 

/made it up.

Any chance Ferguson's opinions can finally be consigned to the bin? Probably not. No doubt he'll be rolled out again soon with some apocalyptic predictions for autumn & winter.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

40 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

A pro independence party with no socioeconomic policies whatsoever is what's needed. A vote for that party would mean nothing else other than you want independence, but also aren't forced to vote for the '3 Ds' party. 

 

This sounds good tbf. When they get elected and you ask them what are they going to do about unemployment or housing, they just wave a flag in your face and scream Scotland !! 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Frank Sobotka

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Insert joke about 'that's what the SNP do m8'

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, gav-ffc said:

 

/made it up.

The article is worth a read.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/33be3974-f6d6-11eb-a2a3-afea84050239?shareToken=c921a163ef5e51672a37434bddee0fca

[Monkey Tennis]

45 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

 

 

It's actually a decent enough piece.  It displays more balance and nuance than the headline implies.

[Dawson Park Boy]

47 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

A pro independence party with no socioeconomic policies whatsoever is what's needed. A vote for that party would mean nothing else other than you want independence, but also aren't forced to vote for the '3 Ds' party. 

 

At least that makes some sense.

You want a UKIP or TBP type party.