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Another ‘anti-restriction’ protest in London this weekend.  Hopefully those not complying with social distancing will be prosecuted.

 

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Just now, Wee Willie said:

If the vaccine doesn't work, WE are all utterly fucked.  FTFY

No we aren't. :lol: 

There will be a lot of pain, a lot of heartache and an awful amount of hardship but you seriously think without a vaccine, humanity will be fucked? Come on!

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Another ‘anti-restriction’ protest in London this weekend.  Hopefully those not complying with social distancing will be prosecuted.
 

f**k off

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1 hour ago, mathematics said:

My sister works in a surgical ward. Been changed to 100% medical patients and is at capacity with covid infected patients.

But aye, open soft play and support are troops.

Burt we have this place, converted at a cost of millions and to the best of my knowledge it has never been utilised

NHS Louisa Jordan Hospital

surely it should be staffed and all Covid patients dealt with here leaving all other hospitals to deal with the backlog they have caused.

It is now gh=etting confusing to ascertain who has died of Covid only or whether they had Covid but underlying factors which were the more likely cause of their death.

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Just now, djchapsticks said:

What other choice at that point would they realistically have other than allowing people go about their lives and letting it take it's course?

Keeping people restricted for another 5, 6, 7 years? There's absolutely no chance. Every new set of restrictions will bring a bigger wave of resistance from people.

If this disease is endemic to the entire globe, at what point do we stop acting like its new and therefore there some right, at almost any cost, not to die from it?

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No we aren't. :lol: 
There will be a lot of pain, a lot of heartache and an awful amount of hardship but you seriously think without a vaccine, humanity will be fucked? Come on!

If that’s the case we should just get on with our lives IMHO

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1 minute ago, Donathan said:


If that’s the case we should just get on with our lives IMHO

I don't think the time for that course of action is right yet but if it turns out that a vaccine is not viable, then it's the only realistic option left.

Open ended research into a vaccine with no resolution in sight is not grounds to lock people down or buy time.

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22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

While strangely in Sweden there is no discernible second wave on deaths yet. That will no doubt be dismissed with a cherrypicked comparison to Denmark though.

There is in cases. 

image.thumb.png.664efd7ea3a1271eb962009c01e65e42.png

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

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3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

If this disease is endemic to the entire globe, at what point do we stop acting like its new and therefore there some right, at almost any cost, not to die from it?

I mean, to all intents, more scientists and epidemiologists are pointing towards it being endemic than not. 

Too many people have in their head that a vaccine is going to be developed, cure it outright and it will be consigned to the history books. This is almost certainly not the case.

A vaccine, more realistically, like the flu vaccine, will give the old and vulnerable a far greater level of protection against the effects but not be foolproof. People with the flu vaccine still can and do die of flu and the same will be the case with covid, particularly with the early vaccines.

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I don't think the time for that course of action is right yet but if it turns out that a vaccine is not viable, then it's the only realistic option left.
Open ended research into a vaccine with no resolution in sight is not grounds to lock people down or buy time.

Exactly. I’d give it 6 months to get a vaccine and if nothing by then, go for herd immunity and accept a death toll.

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2 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

I don't think the time for that course of action is right yet but if it turns out that a vaccine is not viable, then it's the only realistic option left.

Open ended research into a vaccine with no resolution in sight is not grounds to lock people down or buy time.

Yeah this argument from Billy Jean King a few pages ago that we society may never return to normal and we just live out the rest of time with restrictions is just complete and utter nonsense. We aren’t there yet but eventually there comes a point where if no vaccine is viable that we accept it as another risk to health and get back to living our lives alongside the risk.

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7 minutes ago, Elric said:

Burt we have this place, converted at a cost of millions and to the best of my knowledge it has never been utilised

NHS Louisa Jordan Hospital

surely it should be staffed and all Covid patients dealt with here leaving all other hospitals to deal with the backlog they have caused.

It is now gh=etting confusing to ascertain who has died of Covid only or whether they had Covid but underlying factors which were the more likely cause of their death.

Like @Cyclizine said above, there is a finite amount of staff in the nhs. The plan is to use the LJ if normal wards get over run. For now it's being used for outpatient appointments and stuff (my dad had a lesion on his face removed, and his follow up app is at the LJ start of Dec.) 

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1 minute ago, madwullie said:

Like @Cyclizine said above, there is a finite amount of staff in the nhs. The plan is to use the LJ if normal wards get over run. For now it's being used for outpatient appointments and stuff (my dad had a lesion on his face removed, and his follow up app is at the LJ start of Dec.) 

Read his post after I had posted this.  At least it is getting used which is the main thing.

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2 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

Yeah this argument from Billy Jean King a few pages ago that we society may never return to normal and we just live out the rest of time with restrictions is just complete and utter nonsense. We aren’t there yet but eventually there comes a point where if no vaccine is viable that we accept it as another risk to health and get back to living our lives alongside the risk.

Most of the current data (and what cyclezine said above) suggests that letting it rip with no restrictions will result in the nhs being over-run. From what I've read, the only thing that really stopped that from happing last time was stopping all routine stuff and moving staff into covid only wards etc. 

I'm not entirely sure even the tories will go for deliberately letting thousands of people die avoidable deaths as a sacrifice for the economy. 

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2 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Most of the current data (and what cyclezine said above) suggests that letting it rip with no restrictions will result in the nhs being over-run. From what I've read, the only thing that really stopped that from happing last time was stopping all routine stuff and moving staff into covid only wards etc. 

I'm not entirely sure even the tories will go for deliberately letting thousands of people die avoidable deaths as a sacrifice for the economy. 

And of course the flip side we see now is massively long waiting lists, referrals down for cancers and other life threatening diseases, slower times to be seen, gp practices toiling, massive mental health and addictions crisis.  

Its a real difficult one to manage to be honest.

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6 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Most of the current data (and what cyclezine said above) suggests that letting it rip with no restrictions will result in the nhs being over-run. From what I've read, the only thing that really stopped that from happing last time was stopping all routine stuff and moving staff into covid only wards etc. 

I'm not entirely sure even the tories will go for deliberately letting thousands of people die avoidable deaths as a sacrifice for the economy. 

Again, in the scenario that all trials are not successful, no vaccine is viable and one is not on the horizon for a very, very long time, what other realistic course of action would there be other than to let people live their lives without restriction? People at the moment by and large are begrudgingly still accepting of restrictions for the greater good with the promise of a vaccine.

At the point where that promise is removed though, the 'greater good' argument goes out the window with it. They can't indefinitely restrict people, businesses, entire industries if there is no outcome on the horizon.

Edited by djchapsticks

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16 minutes ago, Donathan said:


Exactly. I’d give it 6 months to get a vaccine and if nothing by then, go for herd immunity and accept a death toll.

Herd immunity only works if a vaccine is available. You need >90% of people to be immune, either by having been infected or, more likely, vaccinated. Diseases like measles, rubella, polio were endemic until vaccines were developed. You simply can't get the immunity in the general population to such a high level, just by infecting people with the disease. The NHS will be overwhelmed and the death toll and economic impact massive.

Edited by Cyclizine

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3 minutes ago, Tynierose said:

And of course the flip side we see now is massively long waiting lists, referrals down for cancers and other life threatening diseases, slower times to be seen, gp practices toiling, massive mental health and addictions crisis.  

Its a real difficult one to manage to be honest.

Yeah it's absolute shit 😔 

I kind of hoped there would be a better plan in place this time round to keep some sort of regular service running, rather than just a repeat of the first few months 

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3 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Herd immunity only works if a vaccine is available. You need >90% of people to be immune, either by having been infected or, more likely, vaccinated. Diseases like measles, rubella, polio were endemic until vaccines were developed. You simply can't get the immunity in the general population to such a high level, just by infecting people with the disease. The NHS will be overwhelmed and the death toll and economic impact massive.

 

No you don't. You just need (1-1/R)

If the R number was 3 for example, you'd need 1 - 1/3 = 66.67% of people immune.

The lower the R is, the less immunity you need.

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Another ‘anti-restriction’ protest in London this weekend.  Hopefully those not complying with social distancing will be prosecuted.

 

I was shopping yesterday when an almighty row broke out between an older guy who was masked and a young coiuole (early 20s) who were not wearing any.

 

It all started with a growling "Get yer fucking mask on" from the old boy.

 

I can't blame him - it's frustrating watching people blatantly not using masks.

 

Personally - if you are not able to wear a mask then you are not able to go to the shops.

 

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