Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, Lyle Lanley said:

 

Have you read the story?

“Lib Dems don’t understand Maths” would probably be a better title.  I can’t see the Watchdog doing anything other than upholding NS on this.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I agree that as a sweeping statement it’s not great but I understand the sentiment. People seem to have lost sight of what the government role is in their individual health.

The state I would say is obliged to educate and provide guidance on health and also take steps to not actively put people in harms way But actually acting on that advice is, broadly, on the individual.

The government can give all the advice it likes on obesity etc but you wouldn’t want them to ban all unhealthy food or place restrictions on buying them. similar with alcohol. 

This idea that you must feel safe at all times and the government should be legislating to achieve that is just as bonkers. 

 

Yes, but we do actually largely accept government intervention regarding alcohol.  Not everyone will support that, but I do and most are fine with it.  We're also generally ok with government stipulations over stuff like seat belts.

Again it's something we'd probably all draw different lines on, but only those at a fairly extreme edge would really believe that all responsibility for health must reside solely with the individual.

We're getting that pretty typical mingling of babies and bathwater here, whereby a quest for greater freedom, somehow seeps into a desire for no state intervention at all.

It gets under the radar on here, because the broad idea that current restrictions are OTT, is popular, understandably so.

There is a subtext in play at times, and it's worth being alert to.

[gc_smfc]

32 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

Question for anyone who has been to a public event.

I'm getting my booster on Sunday as the 28 day period from when my covid cleared passed yesterday.

So I have my NHS Scotland app for the game at Ayr on Saturday. It shows me as double jagged and has a section as 'recovery' as the app knows I tested positive for covid so can't get jagged.

But if I move onto the Scotland part of the app, it shows that my covid status isn't valid. Why is this? Surely if I'm protected for international, I also should be for domestic. Either way, to appease them , I've just done an LFT and it's came up negative so I registered it on the Gov/NHS website. How long does this take to show on the app or do I just need to present the text/email to the scanning folk at a game?

I'm in the exactly the same boat, but I got my booster yesterday. Reckon I'll just register a lateral flow to cover myself. 

[scottsdad]

11 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, but we do actually largely accept government intervention regarding alcohol.  Not everyone will support that, but I do and most are fine with it.  We're also generally ok with government stipulations over stuff like seat belts.

Again it's something we'd probably all draw different lines on, but only those at a fairly extreme edge would really believe that all responsibility for health must reside solely with the individual.

This is perhaps a wider discussion of government by consent. We agree to allow the government to make the laws that we then abide by. We allow the government to prosecute/fine people for not wearing seatbelts, or using mobile phones while driving, because these activities are highly dangerous to that person and to others. 

The government is applying the same logic to their restrictions and in March 2020, 99% of people agreed with this, consented, and went into lockdown. As time has gone on however the "danger" has lessened thanks to scientific advancements and the virus' natural evolution. As such fewer people are consenting to having government intervention into their lives. This is the source of tension here - government behaving like there is still a big danger, the public believing it is less dangerous. 

[Rugster]

42 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

Question for anyone who has been to a public event.

I'm getting my booster on Sunday as the 28 day period from when my covid cleared passed yesterday.

So I have my NHS Scotland app for the game at Ayr on Saturday. It shows me as double jagged and has a section as 'recovery' as the app knows I tested positive for covid so can't get jagged.

But if I move onto the Scotland part of the app, it shows that my covid status isn't valid. Why is this? Surely if I'm protected for international, I also should be for domestic. Either way, to appease them , I've just done an LFT and it's came up negative so I registered it on the Gov/NHS website. How long does this take to show on the app or do I just need to present the text/email to the scanning folk at a game?

 

9 minutes ago, gc_smfc said:

I'm in the exactly the same boat, but I got my booster yesterday. Reckon I'll just register a lateral flow to cover myself. 

Does your app maybe need updated? HSF got her booster today and app was showing it within a couple hours. 

[Monkey Tennis]

8 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

This is perhaps a wider discussion of government by consent. We agree to allow the government to make the laws that we then abide by. We allow the government to prosecute/fine people for not wearing seatbelts, or using mobile phones while driving, because these activities are highly dangerous to that person and to others. 

The government is applying the same logic to their restrictions and in March 2020, 99% of people agreed with this, consented, and went into lockdown. As time has gone on however the "danger" has lessened thanks to scientific advancements and the virus' natural evolution. As such fewer people are consenting to having government intervention into their lives. This is the source of tension here - government behaving like there is still a big danger, the public believing it is less dangerous. 

All true, but it doesn't render Michael W's observation, anything other than ridiculous. 

[Granny Danger]

So the latest opinion poll on Independence shows a slight increase and support for the SNP has remained static.

You may recall that there were posters on this thread at the end of December claiming the SG actions on Covid would have a negative impact on the SNP.  Mind you it was all based on anecdotal pish as I pointed out at the time.

Seems the moon howlers are a very small non-representative group after all.  Who’d have thunk it?

 

[joozy]

40 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

Have you read the story?

“Lib Dems don’t understand Maths” would probably be a better title.  I can’t see the Watchdog doing anything other than upholding NS on this.

The Lib Dems will get nowhere with this case, but that doesn't mean that it's not just another attempt by the SNP to hoodwink people.

What Sturgeon did was akin to those pseudoscientists who write articles along the lines of "eating too much bacon trebles the risk of arse cancer" - when in reality one study showed that the risk increased from 0.00001% to 0.0003%.  To put it another way, if there were 20 people in England and only 1 person in Scotland with Covid then you could accurately make the claim that Covid rates in England were c.100% higher than those in Scotland.... but that would be absolutely meaningless.  

She's relying on the general public's mathematic illiteracy to justify her restrictions.  Suppose that's always going to be a safe bet to her given the shitshow her government's made of education in recent years.

 

 

[Abdul_Latif]

12 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So the latest opinion poll on Independence shows a slight increase and support for the SNP has remained static.

Opinion polls are a load of pish.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Abdul_Latif

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

What, for highlighting the screaming absurdity of someone seriously claiming that health concerns begin and end with the individual?

Sorry, but I think that's an utterly bonkers notion and will say so.  

I'd imagine it's more fulfilling than unleashing a torrent of red dots and boasting about it.

Maybe try and explain why you don't agree with it, then, rather than assuming your standard role as the thread's posturing moral arbiter. Maybe you'd get less grief if you did that rather than quote a cherry picked sentence with something like "wow, libertarian type post!" or your endless girning about a subtext with no further comment. 

Your health is primarily *your* responsibility. Clearly you disagree with this so I'm genuinely interested to understand why. 

Everyone that is over the age of 12 and wants a Covid vaccine has had the opportunity to get one. This is their decision and it is their responsibility to make that decision. It is not for society to make this decision. Indeed, most have had the opportunity to get their booster and in many cases a third dose. The vaccines are effective at preventing serious illness. 

It turns out that the vaccines are not however much use now at stopping you getting covid or indeed passing it on if you have it. So if people continued to be frightened of getting covid, what to do? Limit interactions? Not undertake "high risk" activities, wear a mask? These are personal decisions and responsibilities. Society isn't going to make all of these determinations instead. Facemasks are mandatory currently in many of these "high risk" settings and yet people still get the virus anyway. 

Masks, at least in England, will soon no longer be mandatory. So with your three vaccinations and your own mask not coming off, then what? You can buy a FFP2 or FFP3 mask, which offer you a much higher rate of protection, backed up by studies. Indeed, the FFP3 masks were shown to offer NHS frontline staff up to 100% protection from infection. But I seldom see people wearing these masks, instead usually sporting a cloth or surgical mask that has probably been reused a number of times. Too much of an effort to protect your own health, and something best left us to *everyone else* instead. Again, this is a personal decision, and something people need to take responsibility for. 

Society has sacrificed more than enough and put up with draconian restrictions for nearly two years in the name of protecting public health. Indeed a vaccine has been produced which has more than taken the sting out of the pandemic - peak hospitalisations are half of what they were during the Alpha wave, despite cases being 2.5-3x higher. Daily deaths are also down by a factor of 5; the vaccines work, society has protection available to everyone that de-risks the virus. It has fulfilled a big responsibility by making this vaccine available and providing a high level of protection available to all that want it.  

But that's only part of it. If you're not vaccinated, you don't get that additional protection. It is *your* responsibility to make that call. And if you are at increased risk despite your vaccines, it is incumbent on *you* to take the measures necessary to protect yourself. And this is what I mean by your health beginning and ending with *you*. 

It is a personal choice to whether or not you get vaccinated. Your responsibility to make that call. 

Society (well, government and the much-maligned big pharma) provided the vaccine and therefore.the protection it brings. This provides a very good baseline protection for the public. 

If that still isn't enough, it is a personal responsibility to determine what might be needed to make sure you feel safe, whatever that may be. It is not incumbent on society (which has already provided you with a good safety net). 

Society has played its part.The tools are there for people to take additional precautions, but rather than do this people just seem to complain. Why? The amount of whining I see about masks no longer being mandatory and how terrified this makes people is wildly disproportionate to the amount of people I actually see wearing proper masks. If you are genuinely worried, you will take that extra step rather than moaning that everyone else should wear an ill-fitting mask that's been used 9 times without a wash and do it for you (or at least give you the illusion they're protecting you). 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Michael W

[vikingTON]

17 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Who’d have thunk it?

 

The same Brexit-voting clown who forecast approximately 14.6 billion deaths from Covid in March 2020? 

Your latest judgment will be placed in an appropriate bin then. 

[Bairnardo]

19 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

So the latest opinion poll on Independence shows a slight increase and support for the SNP has remained static.

You may recall that there were posters on this thread at the end of December claiming the SG actions on Covid would have a negative impact on the SNP.  Mind you it was all based on anecdotal pish as I pointed out at the time.

Seems the moon howlers are a very small non-representative group after all.  Who’d have thunk it?

 

Failed labour politician/Brexit voter lecturing others on what to think 

 

Gid ane

[Billy Jean King]

I have to say that this would be an immediate resignation matter for me but given I'm retired and don't have to worry about a mortgage, it's easy for me to say.
It doesn't surprise me to hear things like this. The control freaks are going to have to be chased from their positions of power. I expect the unions won't be much help either because they are screaming for restrictions to continue so those who don't like being controlled like this are going to have to fight it alone. It's a crap situation for people to find themselves in.

As I said not my employer but visitors need to comply same as staff. Absolutely being driven by unions (all unions) but that in itself should surprise no one. It's being used as a weapon to encourage uptake of permanent WFH now. That's the aim of many employers and the public sector in particular now. Given how few actually took one of the opt outs for permanent WFH in my main place if employment I don't think too much encouragement is required.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 minutes ago, Abdul_Latif said:

Opinion polls are a load of pish.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/24/scottish-referendum-opinion-polls-yes-vote

If that's the conclusion you reached from that article, there's something wrong.

[Abdul_Latif]

Oddly enough, today after this long, I witnessed my very first call out of someone not wearing a mask in a shop queue.

The chap questioned was quick to tell him, quite aggressively, that it was none of his fucking business and his heart just about dropped out his arse at the response - likely at the realisation he wasn’t far off getting a wrap in the puss.

Much more forthright than I would ever have been myself and tbh the guy was a bit out of line in the nature of his response, but I dare say it’ll make the questioner think twice before asking other folk in future, when it was indeed, none of his fucking business.

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

So the latest opinion poll on Independence shows a slight increase and support for the SNP has remained static.
You may recall that there were posters on this thread at the end of December claiming the SG actions on Covid would have a negative impact on the SNP.  Mind you it was all based on anecdotal pish as I pointed out at the time.
Seems the moon howlers are a very small non-representative group after all.  Who’d have thunk it?
 

Politics Forum for this pish, Brexit Boy.

[ICTChris]

Taking harsher Covid measures will probably increase the support for independence - lockdown measures / restrictions are popular and particularly so among older people, who are the group where independence support is the lowest so has the highest potential for growth.  

I think I'm right in saying that Scotland is an older country demographically than England so that might explain some of the higher support for restrictions as well.  I saw someone on Twitter say that the number of households in England with secondary aged children is twice that of Scotland but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

[Monkey Tennis]

25 minutes ago, Michael W said:

Maybe try and explain why you don't agree with it, then, rather than assuming your standard role as the thread's posturing moral arbiter. Maybe you'd get less grief if you did that rather than quote a cherry picked sentence with something like "wow, libertarian type post!" or your endless girning about a subtext with no further comment. 

Your health is primarily *your* responsibility. Clearly you disagree with this so I'm genuinely interested to understand why. 

Everyone that is over the age of 12 and wants a Covid vaccine has had the opportunity to get one. This is their decision and it is their responsibility to make that decision. It is not for society to make this decision. Indeed, most have had the opportunity to get their booster and in many cases a third dose. The vaccines are effective at preventing serious illness. 

It turns out that the vaccines are not however much use now at stopping you getting covid or indeed passing it on if you have it. So if people continued to be frightened of getting covid, what to do? Limit interactions? Not undertake "high risk" activities, wear a mask? These are personal decisions and responsibilities. Society isn't going to make all of these determinations instead. Facemasks are mandatory currently in many of these "high risk" settings and yet people still get the virus anyway. 

Masks, at least in England, will soon no longer be mandatory. So with your three vaccinations and your own mask not coming off, then what? You can buy a FFP2 or FFP3 mask, which offer you a much higher rate of protection, backed up by studies. Indeed, the FFP3 masks were shown to offer NHS frontline staff up to 100% protection from infection. But I seldom see people wearing these masks, instead usually sporting a cloth or surgical mask that has probably been reused a number of times. Too much of an effort to protect your own health, and something best left us to *everyone else* instead. Again, this is a personal decision, and something people need to take responsibility for. 

Society has sacrificed more than enough and put up with draconian restrictions for nearly two years in the name of protecting public health. Indeed a vaccine has been produced which has more than taken the sting out of the pandemic - peak hospitalisations are half of what they were during the Alpha wave, despite cases being 2.5-3x higher. Daily deaths are also down by a factor of 5; the vaccines work, society has protection available to everyone that de-risks the virus. It has fulfilled a big responsibility by making this vaccine available and providing a high level of protection available to all that want it.  

But that's only part of it. If you're not vaccinated, you don't get that additional protection. It is *your* responsibility to make that call. And if you are at increased risk despite your vaccines, it is incumbent on *you* to take the measures necessary to protect yourself. And this is what I mean by your health beginning and ending with *you*. 

It is a personal choice to whether or not you get vaccinated. Your responsibility to make that call. 

Society (well, government and the much-maligned big pharma) provided the vaccine and therefore.the protection it brings. This provides a very good baseline protection for the public. 

If that still isn't enough, it is a personal responsibility to determine what might be needed to make sure you feel safe, whatever that may be. It is not incumbent on society (which has already provided you with a good safety net). 

Society has played its part.The tools are there for people to take additional precautions, but rather than do this people just seem to complain. Why? The amount of whining I see about masks no longer being mandatory and how terrified this makes people is wildly disproportionate to the amount of people I actually see wearing proper masks. If you are genuinely worried, you will take that extra step rather than moaning that everyone else should wear an ill-fitting mask that's been used 9 times without a wash and do it for you (or at least give you the illusion they're protecting you). 

 

Right, so you didn't mean what you said at all then?

That's a relief.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, Snafu said:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/meat-loaf-dies-at-74?ref=scroll

‘If I Die, I Die’: Meat Loaf Spurned COVID Rules Before Death

The singer said in a recent interview that he was getting tired of pandemic restrictions, complaining about “power-mad” flight attendants who make people wear masks.

Masks eh?

He won't do that.

[101]

1 hour ago, Wee Bully said:

Have you read the story?

“Lib Dems don’t understand Maths” would probably be a better title.  I can’t see the Watchdog doing anything other than upholding NS on this.

Yeh it's a bizzare line of attack for ACH to go for especially when it's nearly 22% higher. I don't understand his logic unless he doesn't understand maths which is a distinct possibility.