Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Overall, your post is a decent enough one, but genuinely, what are you getting at here?

By all means, point to what looks like a misjudgement here.  If you like, be critical of an overly cautious approach, due to the harms entailed.

What do you mean, however, by the pandemic being very precious to the SNP? Do you honestly believe that they want to be managing this mess and in the position of making decisions that damn them either way?  

It's fair to criticise those decisions and it's maybe even fair to question the motives of some who've only risen to prominence because of Covid.  I genuinely think it requires a fairly crazy leap, however, to accuse our senior politicians of loving this health crisis and praying for its continuation.

 

As I have said before, I believe there are people who are welded to Spring 2019 in their mindset, and that this is mostly because they do not believe they have made the political ground they think they are entitled to. Nicola Sturgeon saw her popularity skyrocket during the first wave, and I believe she now sees herself as being in some sort of "I can do no wrong" position, applying the same attitude and mantras to a phase of the pandemic that is clearly wildly different. 

So whilst that might not expicitly fit the box of "she wants this to keep on going" I think its pretty clear that certain aspects of the pandemic response are going on beyond what is actually justifiable, and that this is happening for political reasons. So whilst "loving this health crisis" might be boiling it down a bit far, if you are able to sit and calculate potential political gains and use your position in charge of pandemic response for ends other than preventing the collapse of the health service, its reaosnable to assume you are happy to be doing this, otherwise...... Well you wouldnt be doing it. 

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

It's fine to want all restrictions binned without faux concerns for hospitality or mental health. 

[ICTChris]

Absolutely agree with what’s said about dementia sufferers. We have a member of our family with dementia and they have deteriorated during the pandemic, obviously it’s a degenerative disease and there’s no way of proving it but I think the boredom and lack of stimulation has had a big impact.

Sadly, it now seems likely that this family member has probably got Covid, they are waiting for a PCR and isolating. Not much to be doing other than Hoping it all goes as well as it can.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Remember "not a minute longer than absolutely neccessary"

I do.

I dont remember the statement where that transitioned to "put in place to score some political points, held in place to save some face".

Watching the SNP and various covid nutters have what appears to be a pandemic thats very precious to them, peeled away bit by bit would be great, if it wasnt for the fact that this isnt just a wee political game, its the critical recovery phase of the greatest global crisis in loving memory.

Watching Pagel cheerleading draconian Chinese lunacy, Gurdasani actively willing Omicron to show some signs of super deadliness, Preaching w**k Leitch never off the telly and Sturgeon/Humza/BST et al having absolutely no idea which way to turn as actual scientific data and the path of the virus itself leaves them standing their with the collective cock in their hand is all just depressing as f**k.

In addition to that, if this thread IS representative of a cross section of society at all, then there are a significant number of your pals, family, workmates etc who have somehow become so entrenched in the political capital side of the pandemic that they will claim you are "right wing" for pointing out that Scottish Policy has diverged from available data, and you would prefer a life of personal risk management rather than legally mandated social restrictions.

The real issue isn't that the pandemic is precious to the SNP but that Sturgeon and the SNP leadership are quite reactionary - they don't set the agenda but respond to it. That's down to their innate cautiousness - we've seen throughout this pandemic that everything is framed around "just in case" and not being too radical.

If you look at wider policy areas, apart from the debate around the constitution and issues such as transgender, there isn't a significant difference between them and other political parties. Look at Education where they have pretty much carried on the policies they inherited from SLab.

It's not just that cautiousness though but the increasingly Stalinist nature of the SNP - outside of the usual suspects like McNeil and Cherry there really are no dissenting voices. My own experience within the party organisation is that dissent, even internally, is frowned upon.

That is not healthy.

[Monkey Tennis]

11 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

As I have said before, I believe there are people who are welded to Spring 2019 in their mindset, and that this is mostly because they do not believe they have made the political ground they think they are entitled to. Nicola Sturgeon saw her popularity skyrocket during the first wave, and I believe she now sees herself as being in some sort of "I can do no wrong" position, applying the same attitude and mantras to a phase of the pandemic that is clearly wildly different. 

So whilst that might not expicitly fit the box of "she wants this to keep on going" I think its pretty clear that certain aspects of the pandemic response are going on beyond what is actually justifiable, and that this is happening for political reasons. So whilst "loving this health crisis" might be boiling it down a bit far, if you are able to sit and calculate potential political gains and use your position in charge of pandemic response for ends other than preventing the collapse of the health service, its reaosnable to assume you are happy to be doing this, otherwise...... Well you wouldnt be doing it. 

Ok, would that also apply in the other European countries making similar decisions right now?

[Jan Vojáček]

4 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Absolutely agree with what’s said about dementia sufferers. We have a member of our family with dementia and they have deteriorated during the pandemic, obviously it’s a degenerative disease and there’s no way of proving it but I think the boredom and lack of stimulation has had a big impact.

Sadly, it now seems likely that this family member has probably got Covid, they are waiting for a PCR and isolating. Not much to be doing other than Hoping it all goes as well as it can.

I've noticed a huge deterioration in my Papa too. And he's barely left the house, save for hospital visits, since last March. He's lost his interest in football and church (which were the only places he socialised) and, from speaking to a family member who is a doctor last week, we think he's now suffering from anxiety too.

As you say, there's no way of proving it. But I have absolutely no doubt that a lack of stimulation and taking him out of his routine with football on a Saturday, visits to and from family members during the week etc has increased the speed of his deterioration. 

[lithgierose]

1 hour ago, Jan Vojáček said:

That is possibly the most damning interview I've seen with anyone from the SG during the whole pandemic.

It feels to me like he knows the figures, but they can't un-cancel Hogmanay - so they've got to play the 'we just don't know' card for a few weeks to justify their panicking.

Just as the FM's address yesterday was meant to be a further tightening of restrictions after Westminster admitted they got it wrong and tightened theirs on Boxing Day. 

It's all politics and saving face at this stage. And Humza hasn't even done much of a job of hiding that fact in that interview.

The ministers being interviewed should be hooked upto the mains. And told answer my questions. Yes or No. Anything else and I throw the switch.

[Billy Jean King]

As I have said before, I believe there are people who are welded to Spring 2019 in their mindset, and that this is mostly because they do not believe they have made the political ground they think they are entitled to. Nicola Sturgeon saw her popularity skyrocket during the first wave, and I believe she now sees herself as being in some sort of "I can do no wrong" position, applying the same attitude and mantras to a phase of the pandemic that is clearly wildly different. 
So whilst that might not expicitly fit the box of "she wants this to keep on going" I think its pretty clear that certain aspects of the pandemic response are going on beyond what is actually justifiable, and that this is happening for political reasons. So whilst "loving this health crisis" might be boiling it down a bit far, if you are able to sit and calculate potential political gains and use your position in charge of pandemic response for ends other than preventing the collapse of the health service, its reaosnable to assume you are happy to be doing this, otherwise...... Well you wouldnt be doing it. 

That might be a reasonable stance if our current approach was an outlier in comparison to the rest of Europe but in comparison our restrictions are fairly standard. Are you seriously saying that the political leaders in Denmark, Holland, Portugal etc are all doing what they are doing for political gain rather than what might be misguided public health reasons ?

Anywhere with similar or more stringent restrictions than here (no / very limited crowds at football in Germany and Holland for ages now as one example) can't simply be dismissed as only putting those restrictions in place for political gain. This is Scotland, a more fanatical football loving nation you would struggle to find. We probably have a higher proportion of folk who actively support teams than anywhere else so surely an "attack" on football here would have the exact opposite effect.

Absolutely the restrictions on football are 100% overkill as are those on other sectors with this new strain but to suggest it's a purely political move rather than a totally misguided public health move is pretty wild. There may well be an element of attempting to justify, save face as it were but that's pretty normal political maneuvering as virtually no political party ever admits to a mistake as we have seen for our lifetimes.

[Hard Graft]

1 hour ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

Interview with a man who has something to hide, either he was completely unprepared, possible, or he knows fine well the data won't back up the restrictions.

The answer here is clearly he needs to go on an interview skills training course at Public expense so he can confidently bat away this kind of questioning.

Yet another inept, clueless, trying to deceive, SNP minister.

[Jacksgranda]

11 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

 

No its cool, look hes a proud guy, but tbf disablist comments are actually quite common, also when it comes to getting out and about not everywhere is very accessible so the stress and worry of ‘will i get in here ok’ adds to it, but we know pretty much every ground in Scotland we can safely get dad in and settled quite easily. Few times ive heard pretty awful comments which ive challenged but people are sometimes awful.

 

I find that hard to believe. No, actually I don't, some folk are absolute b*******.

[Jacksgranda]

11 hours ago, ChrisTel said:

 

As another guy put it in this thread a while ago only bothered about their week consisting of a Saturday night being able to sit and watch strictly I’m a celebrity come dancing with me with a Chinese on the sofa.

Very cosmopolitan of them...

[vikingTON]

13 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

That might be a reasonable stance if our current approach was an outlier in comparison to the rest of Europe but in comparison our restrictions are fairly standard. Are you seriously saying that the political leaders in Denmark, Holland, Portugal etc are all doing what they are doing for political gain rather than what might be misguided public health reasons ?

Anywhere with similar or more stringent restrictions than here (no / very limited crowds at football in Germany and Holland for ages now as one example) can't simply be dismissed as only putting those restrictions in place for political gain. This is Scotland, a more fanatical football loving nation you would struggle to find. We probably have a higher proportion of folk who actively support teams than anywhere else so surely an "attack" on football here would have the exact opposite effect.

1) The constituency of football fans in Scotland does not correlate to the ruling political class or the demographic targets that the SG have placated first and foremost throughout the pandemic. 

2) The reason why western Europe is under more stringent measures is because their avoidance of the Delta exit wave during the summer has simply stored up a huge wave of Delta patients this autumn, that is only now being replaced by the shannest of shan cold variants. 

This is extremely straightforward stuff. 

[Bairnardo]

32 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

That might be a reasonable stance if our current approach was an outlier in comparison to the rest of Europe but in comparison our restrictions are fairly standard. Are you seriously saying that the political leaders in Denmark, Holland, Portugal etc are all doing what they are doing for political gain rather than what might be misguided public health reasons ?

Anywhere with similar or more stringent restrictions than here (no / very limited crowds at football in Germany and Holland for ages now as one example) can't simply be dismissed as only putting those restrictions in place for political gain. This is Scotland, a more fanatical football loving nation you would struggle to find. We probably have a higher proportion of folk who actively support teams than anywhere else so surely an "attack" on football here would have the exact opposite effect.

Absolutely the restrictions on football are 100% overkill as are those on other sectors with this new strain but to suggest it's a purely political move rather than a totally misguided public health move is pretty wild. There may well be an element of attempting to justify, save face as it were but that's pretty normal political maneuvering as virtually no political party ever admits to a mistake as we have seen for our lifetimes.
 

Il tag @Monkey Tennis here rather than quote both if you.

I cant really speak for the motivations of Euro govts. Perhaps some of them still have some sort of zero covid influence. Maybe their vaccine coverage isnt what it needs to be. 

Point is though, those places are stand alone states. 

We are basically an outlier in our own country. Theres isnt the same political landscape in France or Germany so who would they be scoring points off or trying to make a point to? 

The entire issue here is why have the SNP diverged from Westminster when its Westminster that has to make the call that gives the required funding to make the measures less damaging. 

The reckless tories thing didnt work in the summer, as nothing happened when they dropped restrictions, it doesnt seem to working now as cases of a mild variant fail to hospitalise swathes of a hugely vaccinated population.

Comparing Scotland with France or Germany really only gives half of the story. 

 

[GiGi]

Was there as much mewling on social media about religious exceptionalism or is it only bad when football fans want to attend matches rather than churches?

[s_dog]

Yousaf comes across as an idiot in that interview, but why is Geissler using a made up 50% figure (did it not come from the Daily Mail/Telegraph, hardly a reliable source) when the most recent general consensus is that 70% of people admitted to hospitals in England are being treated for Covid? 

For crowds, I do think they underestimate the impact is has on many people not being able to go to games. And I don't get the 500 limit, they should have set it at a % of capacity. Even with the argument about people travelling to games and mixing in pubs beforehand, the 500 limit seems incredibly arbitrary.

But the whole reducing isolation time, use of vaccine passports, limiting crowds at games as if it's a clear argument that the Scot Gov are the only one's not following clear evidence that these are all right/wrong is nonsense. Clearly there are plenty of other countries doing similar to Scotland (the rest of the UK apart from England for one thing), Germany's restrictions still exist from the spike they had in Nov/early Dec, their cases have been on a downward trend for much of December but they know Omicron will drive them up and are continuing with & bringing in even more restrictions. Yet here we've got so many people wailing about how England is doing it right and we aren't just because people are unhappy with any restrictions.

Edited December 30, 2021 by s_dog

[Louis Litt]

That interview with Yousaf is incredibly telling, complete and utter waffle. They've jumped the gun, further damaged livelihoods and will never have it in them to come out and admit that actually big bad Westminster might have made a better call. 

But yeah, pretend you can't comment on numbers because it breaches confidentiality. 

 

[NUMBER 7]

57 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

As I have said before, I believe there are people who are welded to Spring 2019 in their mindset, and that this is mostly because they do not believe they have made the political ground they think they are entitled to. Nicola Sturgeon saw her popularity skyrocket during the first wave, and I believe she now sees herself as being in some sort of "I can do no wrong" position, applying the same attitude and mantras to a phase of the pandemic that is clearly wildly different. 

So whilst that might not expicitly fit the box of "she wants this to keep on going" I think its pretty clear that certain aspects of the pandemic response are going on beyond what is actually justifiable, and that this is happening for political reasons. So whilst "loving this health crisis" might be boiling it down a bit far, if you are able to sit and calculate potential political gains and use your position in charge of pandemic response for ends other than preventing the collapse of the health service, its reaosnable to assume you are happy to be doing this, otherwise...... Well you wouldnt be doing it. 

The SNP have gone on record as saying Indy Ref 2 is on the back burner until the pandemic is under control.

To that end yes they do wish strands of the pandemic to linger on, its in a warped way it is in their best interests, as they are currently and medium term in no position to hold and hope to win said referendum, should it be allowed in the first place.

Now the truth of omicron is out the bag they would be better to produce the real numbers that say

Folks going into hospital with Omicron Covid are about 20% of the declared number in hospital that also have tested positive for Covid. 

The NHS is not over run by case numbers, but has issues with staff shortages through folks having to isolate.

The number of Covid ventilations and deaths are reducing to minuscule numbers.

Sorry We fucked up and were over cautious, then hope folks have short memories, but I’d suspect this recent fiasco won’t be forgotten 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bairnardo]

Not convinced "aye but other countries are doing it" is the best justification for not holding someone to account if their choices turn out to be wrong....

If thats the standard we want to set, we might aswell just say that for as king as we arent welding people into their homes, we are doing fine and theres nothing to see here. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Il tag [mention=21987]Monkey Tennis[/mention] here rather than quote both if you.
I cant really speak for the motivations of Euro govts. Perhaps some of them still have some sort of zero covid influence. Maybe their vaccine coverage isnt what it needs to be. 
Point is though, those places are stand alone states. 
We are basically an outlier in our own country. Theres isnt the same political landscape in France or Germany so who would they be scoring points off or trying to make a point to? 
The entire issue here is why have the SNP diverged from Westminster when its Westminster that has to make the call that gives the required funding to make the measures less damaging. 
The reckless tories thing didnt work in the summer, as nothing happened when they dropped restrictions, it doesnt seem to working now as cases of a mild variant fail to hospitalise swathes of a hugely vaccinated population.
Comparing Scotland with France or Germany really only gives half of the story. 
 

One could argue that it's Westminster who is the outlier compared to the other 3 nations.

I've said elsewhere that the reason for the differences in the UK is more to do with the cautionary nature of the Executives of the 3 nations combined with a complete lack of opposition.

At the end of the day the SNP are still a minority administration - the Greens, SLab and Scottish Tories are not providing any opposition or accountability. If you look at Wales it's the same - the only exception for the 3 nations seems to be when the DUP opposed certification - but they too have largely let other measures through unopposed. The questioning yesterday was just abysmal - primarily about logistics or tinkering at the edges of restrictions than the validity of the restrictions themselves. It's been like that throughout this pandemic.


There is also an obligation for the elected members of the ruling parties to provide constructive accountability - but again it seems non-existent, either due to fear of rocking the boat or, in the case of the SNP, that they are not allowed to.

I get that when you join a political party there is an expectation to follow the party line - however, it shouldn't mean that genuine concerns or constructive criticisms just don't see the light of day.

It's not healthy for democracy at all.

[Elixir]

5 hours ago, Steven W said:

One thing though, at least this is a mainstream media journalist asking some proper interrogating questions. Can't recall seeing that before.

He's a good Hertz man. Probably raging he won't be on it for the New Year's derby at Easter Road anymore.