Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The sad thing is, it would be of little surprise for it to transpire that they have utterly fucked this. Both in terms of identifying the need for restrictions, then defining them, then in the implementation. All areas where they have fucked up before. A load of shit data and scaremongering, then a load of political backtracking and "Wont apologise for keeping people safe" chat, whilst others count the cost. 

I personally find it staggering that they still think any restrictions short of outright banning something will have any effect at all. 

Look how long it took for Glasgow to get out of it's circuit breaker despite having much harsher restrictions in place than this proposes. I don't even think it ever did get out of it before they just scrapped it about 8 months later.

And therein lies the very real problem with never independently completing any effectiveness or cost / benefit studies - they have no idea what is effective and how much.

This proposal is, quite simply, "doing something" pish. It will have next to no positive effect on transmission, but it will have a negative impact on people's lives, mental health, and businesses. Not to mention the public purse.

How many times do they have to do the same things before the penny drops that, short of a full lockdown, the virus will simply continue to spread for a few weeks until it reaches it's natural peak, then decline. It's what has happened every wave, every where, every time.

And during that time that's when the vaccines do their thing by reducing the overall severity.

Other than speeding up the booster jags, these "protections" are nonsense.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Todd_is_God

[Scotty Tunbridge]

5 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Mrs. B just told me a story that had me howling.

Her boss has Covid.  He caught it at a party at his cricket club.  (25 out of 75 attendees have tested positive).

Turns out the guy that allegedly brought it into the cricket club party had been at another party the night before.  At his previous party they’d been using those balloons you blow up, let them go, then they fly round the room making noise until you pick them up, blow them up again and repeat the cycle.

How fucking stupid would you have to be to think the balloons were a good idea?

Even pre 2020 when hand washing was just a hobby that balloon thing would have been disgusting.

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

Thankfully we won't be relying on Joe Public to behave in a sensible manner going forward.  

Thankfully this was down south or we’d be legislating against balloons in Holyrood.  Would be the end of Swinney right enough.

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, Scotty Tunbridge said:

Even pre 2020 when hand washing was just a hobby that balloon thing would have been disgusting.

Tbf when I was a kid I thought they were great fun and loved them.  In my defence that was over 40 years ago.  A bunch of grown men fannying about with the should really be on a government list.

[Todd_is_God]

9 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Mrs. B just told me a story that had me howling.

Her boss has Covid.  He caught it at a party at his cricket club.  (25 out of 75 attendees have tested positive).

Turns out the guy that allegedly brought it into the cricket club party had been at another party the night before.  At his previous party they’d been using those balloons you blow up, let them go, then they fly round the room making noise until you pick them up, blow them up again and repeat the cycle.

How fucking stupid would you have to be to think the balloons were a good idea?

Assuming they were not sharing the little plastic tubes you use to blow said balloons up, i'm not convinced that said balloons would have much impact at all given that you are dealing with a group of people in the same room breathing the same air for a prolonged period anyway.

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, 101 said:

I think the problem with that logic is:

Firstly, you could do nothing everything is as was in November, country is in a poor situation due to the levels of people in self isolation.

Secondly you take out test and protect and the need to isolate etc and hope the emerging data is correct about a less severe disease and hope the r rate is less than 2.6 (to keep hospital admissions below) and hope folk get vaxed.

Thirdly is you do some things and increase vaccination capacity. This is obviously the route they have gone down I think the focus of restrictions for me ought to be in schools although it obviously isn't as popular politically.

Don't know if you think there is a 4th way? Genuinely interested.

In the immediate term I honestly dont know. What we cannot do is rewind two years and begin making changes to the health service which might have been bearing fruit by now, in terms of capacity because the virus itself is making it abundantly clear that its here forever, and forever is not an acceptable length of time to be p***king around threatening this industry but not that one, which seems to me at least, to be ideologically driven by people who hate drinkers. 

Thats what I want answers to though, and its part of why I am no longer willing to comply. All of those billions on reactions that lag the numbers and hope to push them down with no regard to ongoing value in terms of managing the virus. And where are we? We are back to arguing about getting MORE taxpayers money to simply pay folk to hunker down for a few months, then repeat. Again, and again, and again. 

If this pandemic allows for your response to be politically tailored then its not that fucking bad to begin with. The response to Omicron has been heavily caveated with "we might see hopsital numbers increase" but hospital capacity is reached and/or exceeded routinely, and that THEIR choice, not mine. 

Thats what needs fixed. Their capacity calculations no longer work. 

[deegee]

The one thing I took away from Sturgeon’s speech today was her specific comment she wasn’t making a political point but she wanted UK Government to support her preferred options with additional finance etc. At that point it was 100% an entirely political point and has been the focus of discussion in the media since. I watched The Nine on BBC Scotland and that was first question to Swinney.

It basically sums all this up since winter this year; all political driven, with marginal science or medical basis and sadly on our doorstep, we have two of the biggest manipulators of this virus for their own gain, Sturgeon and Boris down the road. 

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Assuming they were not sharing the little plastic tubes you use to blow said balloons up, i'm not convinced that said balloons would have much impact at all given that you are dealing with a group of people in the same room breathing the same air for a prolonged period anyway.

You may be right but can you think of a better guaranteed way of spreading an airborne virus round a room than jet propelling it?

[Miguel Sanchez]

22 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Mrs. B just told me a story that had me howling.

Her boss has Covid.  He caught it at a party at his cricket club.  (25 out of 75 attendees have tested positive).

Turns out the guy that allegedly brought it into the cricket club party had been at another party the night before.  At his previous party they’d been using those balloons you blow up, let them go, then they fly round the room making noise until you pick them up, blow them up again and repeat the cycle.

How fucking stupid would you have to be to think the balloons were a good idea?

I'm more concerned at why your wife has a 5 year old for a boss because that's about the age limit I can see that being amusing for

[101]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

In the immediate term I honestly dont know. What we cannot do is rewind two years and begin making changes to the health service which might have been bearing fruit by now, in terms of capacity because the virus itself is making it abundantly clear that its here forever, and forever is not an acceptable length of time to be p***king around threatening this industry but not that one, which seems to me at least, to be ideologically driven by people who hate drinkers. 

Thats what I want answers to though, and its part of why I am no longer willing to comply. All of those billions on reactions that lag the numbers and hope to push them down with no regard to ongoing value in terms of managing the virus. And where are we? We are back to arguing about getting MORE taxpayers money to simply pay folk to hunker down for a few months, then repeat. Again, and again, and again. 

If this pandemic allows for your response to be politically tailored then its not that fucking bad to begin with. The response to Omicron has been heavily caveated with "we might see hopsital numbers increase" but hospital capacity is reached and/or exceeded routinely, and that THEIR choice, not mine. 

Thats what needs fixed. Their capacity calculations no longer work. 

Agree the NHS needs massively modernised with a much larger scalable capacity. This is naturally harder post brexit but absolutely has to be the discussion in spring to prepare the NHS to catch up and be capable of handling flu Covid or whatever.

Covid doesn't necessarily need to be here forever but only China and the EU seem all that proactive in vaccinating countries that don't have the resources, "global Britain" should be at the fore imo.

I'm probably in a minority that thinks tax payers should always have been providing financial support for anyone in isolation and companies effected absolutely criminal the statutory sick pay and the way businesses can be effectively closed by health protection folk with no cash. No idea how they are expected to survive long term and this has 100% driven up foodbank use. I'm with you in knowing an end game hopefully we can see this discussed in the new year as the booster scheme runs to a close and more is known about Omicron.

I agree that if you can make political decisions then it's not that grim but that's the nature of having politicians making the decisions and not health professionals. I don't know if one is better than the other we can at least vote the politicians out.

And like you open with I don't know either, bugger having to make the decisions.

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

I'm more concerned at why your wife has a 5 year old for a boss because that's about the age limit I can see that being amusing for

He wasn’t at the balloon party.

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, 101 said:

Agree the NHS needs massively modernised with a much larger scalable capacity. This is naturally harder post brexit but absolutely has to be the discussion in spring to prepare the NHS to catch up and be capable of handling flu Covid or whatever.

Covid doesn't necessarily need to be here forever but only China and the EU seem all that proactive in vaccinating countries that don't have the resources, "global Britain" should be at the fore imo.

I'm probably in a minority that thinks tax payers should always have been providing financial support for anyone in isolation and companies effected absolutely criminal the statutory sick pay and the way businesses can be effectively closed by health protection folk with no cash. No idea how they are expected to survive long term and this has 100% driven up foodbank use. I'm with you in knowing an end game hopefully we can see this discussed in the new year as the booster scheme runs to a close and more is known about Omicron.

I agree that if you can make political decisions then it's not that grim but that's the nature of having politicians making the decisions and not health professionals. I don't know if one is better than the other we can at least vote the politicians out.

And like you open with I don't know either, bugger having to make the decisions.

Just to sort of add to the above (I was tpying as your post appeared), although I am aware I didnt actually give you a specific answer of what to do now .... I'm not hearing a lot of "until" which is my issue. 

Restrictions until booster program reaches X% coverage?

Restrictions until Hospital capacity is increased?

Restrictions until X and Y therapeutic gets approval?

Restrictions until additional hospital staff are trained?

The only until that is absolutely no valid is "Until covid goes away". Because that isnt happening. 

They have absolutely no fucking idea how to let go of the measures they took when the situation was wildly different, new and unprecedented but for me they need to let go, commit to the transition to endemicity. This idea that this restriction or that restriction can make the differnce is utterly nonsensical. It doesnt bear any form of scrutiny. 

FWIW, I think and hope the tide of public opinion is turning. I think and hope media scrutiny might begin coming their way because of the reaction to omicron. I think the SNP have really overplayed this one, and people are seeing through it. 

[Todd_is_God]

14 minutes ago, Left Back said:

You may be right but can you think of a better guaranteed way of spreading an airborne virus round a room than jet propelling it?

Getting my nails done

[Lyle Lanley]

The state of some these replies in her tweet.   

[Todd_is_God]

11 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

FWIW, I think and hope the tide of public opinion is turning. I think and hope media scrutiny might begin coming their way because of the reaction to omicron. I think the SNP have really overplayed this one, and people are seeing through it. 

I believe these people (the SG) should be smart enough to spot a pattern, but the biggest issue is undoubtably the models that they are being fed.

These, despite being consistently atrocious, help shape the response.

Yet these modellers will come out the other side of this absolutely beyond reproach despite the damage they have caused.

They should, at least, be sacked as they are quite clearly absolutely shite at their job.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Todd_is_God

[Frankie S]

So, where we are at the moment in Scotland?

For customers in hospitality, limiting themselves to groups made up of no more than 3 households is now advisory - guidance - i.e. optional, but for businesses, as from midnight on Friday 17th Dec, it will be mandatory to enforce the new restrictions (physical distancing, maximum group sizes, maximum households per group) and yet, as of this moment, we don’t have a clue what we have to enforce - physical distancing between groups - is it 2m or 1m+ - it’s been both in the past, so what is it now? No-one knows. Maximum group size is yet to be specified. Is it groups of 8 or 6? It’s been both in the past, so what is is now? No-one knows.

Has the Scottish government thought this through? If physical distancing and maximum group sizes / household limits per group returns, then nightclubs won’t be able to operate, unless they repurpose themselves (again) as socially distanced bars. That’s that sector shuttered again. Live gigs can’t take place, (other than socially distanced gigs, and everyone knows that’s a non-starter), and upcoming gigs currently booked in Scotland will have to be cancelled / rescheduled, while the English dates of U.K. tours carry on as normal.

Is this what the Scottish government wants? And assuming it is, how is it going to underwrite the losses, not just of the hospitality industry (with huge stock and food orders already purchased for a Christmas season that now won’t happen) but how on earth will it cover the losses of nightclubs, the live music, events and tourism sectors too? Countless events across numerous sectors cancelled that have already been advertised, with the majority of costs already incurred, with tickets and deposits to be fully refunded.

100 million pounds? SERIOUSLY?

Do the Scottish government think that will even touch the sides of the problem? Scottish hospitality, live music, events, nightclubs, hotels, and tourism businesses, already pushed to the brink of extinction due to prolonged closure, acute staffing shortages (due to the ‘pingdemic’, hugely exacerbated by Brexit, and the labour-intensive vaccine passport scheme that now seems to have been rendered near useless for allowing us to trade normally again), and ongoing supply issues (and bear in mind, 20,000 Scottish businesses and counting didn’t make it through the first year of the pandemic) now have to absorb cataclysmic losses at the one time of the year they might have expected to recoup some of the losses accumulated over the last 21 months) That won’t even cover what’s been lost to date, ever since Public Health Scotland advised everyone to cancel their Christmas nights out, let alone what is to come, as we go back into another long dark tunnel of heavily restricted trading, without the safety net of furlough or meaningful government support, and no end date in sight (I’m assuming we go back to the 4-weekly review system, but as with everything at the moment, no-one knows anything, let alone the government).

How much does the Scottish government think hospitality and the other associated sectors can take? All the while, the threat from Sturgeon of tighter restrictions and looming complete closure (‘if only the Scottish government had the funds to do it‘) constantly dangled over our heads like the Sword of Damocles?

The staggering incompetence of the Scottish government is something I’ve become accustomed to over the last couple of years, and that didn’t come as a surprise given the ‘talent’ pool at Holyrood, but the absolute contempt with which the Scottish government treats the Scottish hospitality industry (and associated sectors) has been a real eye-opener.

I can’t believe for one second that my views are unique in the Scottish business sector, and perhaps more people will stick their head above the parapet and attack Sturgeon and her minions over the coming weeks and months as Scottish businesses continue to pick up the tab for Sturgeon’s constant parochial politicking, obsessively differentiating ourselves from England and the ‘reckless Tories’ at every opportunity, by doubling down, restricting Scottish businesses at every turn, without the financial wherewithal to compensate them adequately.

Independence might eventually be won, but at what cost? An eviscerated economy and an utterly alienated, demoralised and diminished business community - those few of us that are left standing, and actually want to stay in this country to help rebuild it.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Frankie S

[PedroMoutinho]

11 minutes ago, Lyle Lanley said:

The state of some these replies in her tweet.   

Tbh I’m astonished she’s acknowledged it’s likely to result in less severe illness.

[deegee]

4 minutes ago, Frankie S said:

So, where we are at the moment in Scotland?

For customers in hospitality, limiting themselves to groups made up of no more than 3 households is now advisory - guidance - i.e. optional, but for businesses, as from midnight on Friday 17th Dec, it will be mandatory to enforce the new restrictions (physical distancing, maximum group sizes, maximum households per group) and yet, as of this moment, we don’t have a clue what we have to enforce - physical distancing between groups - is it 2m or 1m+ - it’s been both in the past, so what is it now? No-one knows. Maximum group size is yet to be specified. Is it groups of 8 or 6? It’s been both in the past, so what is is now? No-one knows.

Has the Scottish government thought this through? If physical distancing and maximum group sizes / household limits per group returns, then nightclubs won’t be able to operate, unless they repurpose themselves (again) as socially distanced bars. That’s that sector shuttered again. Live gigs can’t take place, (other than socially distanced gigs, and everyone knows that’s a non-starter), and all gigs currently booked in Scotland will have to be cancelled / rescheduled, while the English dates of U.K. tours carry on as normal.

Is this what the Scottish government wants? And assuming it is, how is it going to underwrite the losses, not just of the hospitality industry (with huge stock and food orders already purchased for a Christmas season that now won’t happen) but how on earth will it cover the losses of nightclubs, the live music, events and tourism sectors too? Countless events across numerous sectors cancelled that have already been advertised, with the majority of costs already incurred, with tickets and deposits to be fully refunded.

100 million pounds? SERIOUSLY?

Do the Scottish government think that will even touch the sides of the problem? Scottish hospitality, live music, events, nightclubs, hotels, and tourism businesses, already pushed to the brink of extinction due to prolonged closure, acute staffing shortages (due to the ‘pingdemic’, hugely exacerbated by Brexit, and the labour-intensive vaccine passport scheme that now seems to have been rendered near useless for allowing us to trade normally again), and ongoing supply issues (and bear in mind, 20,000 Scottish businesses and counting didn’t make it through the first year of the pandemic) now have to absorb cataclysmic losses at the one time of the year they might have expected to recoup some of the losses accumulated over the last 21 months) That won’t even cover what’s been lost to date, ever since Public Health Scotland advised everyone to cancel their Christmas nights out, let alone what is to come, as we go back into another long dark tunnel of heavily restricted trading, without the safety net of furlough or meaningful government support, and no end date in sight (I’m assuming we go back to the 4-weekly review system, but as with everything at the moment, no-one knows anything, let alone the government).

How much does the Scottish government think hospitality and the other associated sectors can take? All the while, the threat from Sturgeon of tighter restrictions and looming complete closure (‘if only the Scottish government had the funds to do it‘) constantly dangled over our heads like the Sword of Damocles?

The staggering incompetence of the Scottish government is something I’ve become accustomed to over the last couple of years, and that didn’t come as a surprise given the ‘talent’ pool at Holyrood, but the absolute contempt with which the Scottish government treats the Scottish hospitality industry (and associated sectors) has been a real eye-opener.

I can’t believe for one second that my views are unique in the Scottish business sector, and perhaps more people will stick their head above the parapet and attack Sturgeon and her minions over the coming weeks and months as Scottish businesses continue to pick up the tab for Sturgeon’s constant parochial politicking, obsessively differentiating ourselves from England and the ‘reckless Tories’ at every opportunity, by doubling down, restricting Scottish businesses at every turn, without the financial wherewithal to compensate them adequately.

Independence might eventually be won, but at what cost? An eviscerated economy and an utterly alienated, demoralised and diminished business community - those few of us that are left standing, and actually want to stay in this country to help rebuild it.

An amazing and starkly candid post about the reality of one of Scotland’s main industries. It’s not all about boozing, clubs and discos ; there is a massive part of our hospitality economy that is daytime and tourism driven, as well as literally thousands of hotels and accommodation bases which are part of this industry.

I am not a prolific poster but have noted Frankie’s posts in this topic. It has been an ill- thought and poorly handled management by our government and guys like Frankie and his staff are bearing the economic brunt.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 hour ago, deegee said:

 

However I’m sure the cops have more to deal with this weekend than a bar  being full or a shop having a load of Christmas shoppers drop in.

 

Currently something like 800-900 off sick just now. Remember these are the public sector workers who had to pick up the strain from the other public sector agencies which massively scaled back service provision and werent deemed worthy of vaccination, shock horror they arent worthy again for boosters, but the same office wallahs and people who work a saturday in specsavers are. Even funeral directors are deemed worthy, despite police officers having to attend any sudden death and remain with the deceased until the fully boostered funeral directors turn up. 
 

[Lyle Lanley]