Elixir Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Meanwhile, Norway are the latest country to take its place at the grown-ups table. No real surprise, despite it having some of the lowest levels of immunity in Europe through lack of natural infection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: The source I linked to is an article summarising the scientific papers linked below it. I guess that was too hard for you to comprehend even though I wrote it in my post. No it isn't. It is a comment piece. I can even highlight this fact for you right now: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Do any of these studies (which suggest limited value) consider the impact of a re-used, improperly worn disposable face mask, an unwashed cloth face mask, or a handkerchief loosely fitted over someones nose and face? Because that is the reality in the real world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 22 minutes ago, The Master said: In our department, capacity restrictions mean all lectures are online. I’m not sure if that applies university-wide, or if it’s a case of our lectures (Computer Science) being better suited to online than other subjects that then get priority for lecture theatres. All years have at least one module with an on-campus lab session. But again, capacity limits make it impossible for all modules to have this because rooms are at half capacity, meaning each lab needs at least two sessions. As I understand it, the official guidance is 1m distancing. It’s then up to the individual universities how they work with that. Thanks. That's helpful. I can see the 1m thing still being able to wreak havoc. My own view is that insufficient effort is being made to work round that to produce a scaled back in-person experience from the norm, but one which far outstrips what's currently in place. I'm wary of leaping to my own conclusions though, because I know that it's very easy to misunderstand the dynamics and concerns of a workplace from the outside. The informed responses I'm getting, however, aren't really denting that view. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Elixir said: Maybe you should invest in some reading lessons, bud. Generously two sentences you posted made sense but enjoy your night chum! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, virginton said: No it isn't. It is a comment piece. I can even highlight this fact for you right now: Did you scroll to the bottom? Where the reference peer-reviewed scientific journal articles are linked. usually you aren't this thick. I also reject your contention that relaxing of mask rules made no difference in England therefore masks are useless. I think mask relaxation in England made no difference because there wasn't a large population sticking to the mask mandate in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, virginton said: Students all have social media and chat groups, the idea that they are being 'denied' the chance to meet and gather is laughable. Really? The opportunity to form meaningful connections and relationships with people you study with, is not in any way affected by not actually meeting in decent numbers and sharing that common experience directly? What a remarkable theory. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: Generously two sentences you posted made sense but enjoy your night chum! Better than your entire contribution to this board, then! Fantastic stuff! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just now, Jim McLean's Ghost said: Did you scroll to the bottom? Where the reference peer-reviewed scientific journal articles are linked. Just because a comment piece - which assume you now mewlingly accept that it is - cites references to scientific journal articles does not mean that the comment piece "proved masks work". In the same way that a comment piece in the Guardian or any other form of media 'proves' its point because it occasionally refers to sources or articles. You should probably stop digging this hole for yourself right now. Quote I also reject your contention that relaxing of mask rules made no difference in England therefore masks are useless. I think mask relaxation in England made no difference because there wasn't a large population sticking to the mask mandate in the first place. An exercise in wishful thinking that mask enthusiasts most certainly weren't running with prior to Reckless Freedom Day!!11!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Thanks. That's helpful. I can see the 1m thing still being able to wreak havoc. My own view is that insufficient effort is being made to work round that to produce a scaled back in-person experience from the norm, but one which far outstrips what's currently in place. I'm wary of leaping to my own conclusions though, because I know that it's very easy to misunderstand the dynamics and concerns of a workplace from the outside. The informed responses I'm getting, however, aren't really denting that view. I should add that for us, there's an added complication of having a reasonable number of international students, many of whom cannot or are choosing not to be in Scotland this semester, which makes some form of online teaching inevitable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Really? The opportunity to form meaningful connections and relationships with people you study with, is not in any way affected by not actually meeting in decent numbers and sharing that common experience directly? What a remarkable theory. Erm no, they can arrange to meet each other to do just that anywhere and anytime through those apps. They're not cloistered for the year. If they want to meet classmates, they can skip straight to the 'let's go to the pub' stage instead of chit-chatting in a lecture theatre first. It's really that straightforward. Edited September 21, 2021 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, virginton said: Just because a comment piece - which assume you now mewlingly accept that it is - cites references to scientific journal articles does not mean that the comment piece "proved masks work". In the same way that a comment piece in the Guardian or any other form of media 'proves' its point because it occasionally refers to sources or articles. You should probably stop digging this hole for yourself right now. An exercise in wishful thinking that mask enthusiasts most certainly weren't running with prior to Reckless Freedom Day!!11!!! Did you go through and read any of the scientific artles where they proved that masks work? I notice you don't actually want to attack any of the content of the article and its linked research. Your contention here is that the lancet are just posting shite despite you know, all the linked peer reviewed papers. I guess I should expect nothing less from the covid sceptic thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, craigkillie said: I should add that for us, there's an added complication of having a reasonable number of international students, many of whom cannot or are choosing not to be in Scotland this semester, which makes some form of online teaching inevitable. I don't agree with that. That some people cannot / choose not to actually attend the university they have enrolled in should not be reason to dilute the course delivery for those that can. For those that genuinely cannot, they can hold back a year. For those that choose not to, well tough luck. They should have chosen an online university. Edited September 21, 2021 by Todd_is_God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Even under the assumption that that lancet article is anything more than a glorified newspaper column it also took them many years to withdraw Andrew Wakefield's vaccines and autism study so I'd be wary of using any individual articles in there tbh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just now, Todd_is_God said: I don't agree with that. That some people cannot / choose not to actually attend the university they have enrolled in should not be reason to dilute the course delivery for those that can. That's not what I said. There would have been a number of ways to work around that if we had normality here, but it becomes part of the consideration once we realise that normality isn't possible anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 18 minutes ago, craigkillie said: There are a couple of things at play I think. The advice from the government on what was and wasn't allowed came quite late in the day and therefore a lot of plans had to be made based on the existing rules at the time. I think they were taken a bit by surprise by the move to drop social distancing - I've heard from a few different people that a lot of industries were expecting that to be retained well in to next year. The unions have definitely played a part too, university staff unions are probably one of few that still wield a decent bit of power, and there was definitely a push from that end to ensure "safe" working conditions. Based on discussions with colleagues, I reckon there are still a large chunk of lecturers and staff who are still basically living in last April in terms of their views on covid, particularly those that have nice comfortable working spaces at home and have no real desire to return to the office regularly. In my experience the decisions are typically being made at university level rather than individual departments, though they may have some flexibility. For us, we were told we needed to keep 1m distancing, which meant that it was basically impossible to schedule a lot of classes since there simply aren't rooms big enough to accommodate larger classes, and there aren't enough rooms to accommodate all of the smaller classes at the same time. Thanks. That actually confirms some of my suspicions/prejudices. I think I'm frustrated by the fact that there doesn't seem to be much pressure to offer something better. I obviously recognise that schools were required to get back to something like normal much earlier, because their social role, not least in terms of childcare, is very different from that of universities. There are some parallels in their function, however, and universities ought to be easier environments to control. I saw something about English universities now being required to offer a fuller experience, yet ours still seem able to behave, as you say, as if we're at a much earlier stage of the entire pandemic. Do you see the picture changing much anytime soon? What do you think would be needed to bring that about? Who should I complain to, apart from helpful types on a football forum? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: Did you go through and read any of the scientific artles where they proved that masks work? Why would I do that when you just told me that your linked article already proved masks work anyway? Except for the unfortunate facts that it, err, wasn't even an article at all and did no such thing. Quote I notice you don't actually want to attack any of the content of the article and its linked research. Your contention here is that the lancet are just posting shite despite you know, all the linked peer reviewed papers. No, The Lancet are posting a comment piece by a set of authors who want people to wear masks. I have absolutely zero interest in parsing through what they linked to in order to deconstruct their opinion. You were the one who claimed to have posted proof that masks work, and you have still failed to do so. Which is what happens when you rush to Google for hauners. Quote I guess I should expect nothing less from the covid sceptic thread ^^^ verge of tears Edited September 21, 2021 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, virginton said: Erm no, they can arrange to meet each other to do just that anywhere and anytime through those apps. They're not cloistered for the year. If they want to meet classmates, they can skip straight to the 'let's go to the pub' stage instead of chit-chatting in a lecture theatre first. It's really that straightforward. Yes, some of that can happen, but there's no question at all that such relationships are much better able to become established and then flourish if people are in close, regular contact in the first place. That you don't recognise this should perhaps not constitute a surprise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, virginton said: Why would I do that when you just told me that your linked article already proved masks work anyway? Except for the unfortunate facts that it, err, wasn't even an article at all and did no such thing. No, The Lancet are posting a comment piece by a set of authors who want people to wear masks. I have absolutely zero interest in parsing through what they linked to in order to deconstruct their opinion. You were the one who claimed to have posted proof that masks work, and you have still failed to do so. Which is what happens when you rush to Google for hauners. ^^^ verge of tears You are saying the article is shite because it isn't a science paper. Yet you won't read the science papers that back up the article. I'll link one for you - not published in the lancet https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8238571/ Abstract We identified seasonal human coronaviruses, influenza viruses and rhinoviruses in the exhaled breath and coughs of children and adults with acute respiratory illness. Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a marginally significant reduction in coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical facemasks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric's Cantina Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: I know there are a handful of posters on here who work at universities, so I suppose this inquiry is really directed at them. I kind of want to ask, genuinely in good faith, about what's happening in the sector as regards direction and instruction. This is prompted by my own daughter's experience as she starts her second year. She was actually in a university building yesterday for the first ever time. She's not back in for another month and is scheduled to be in again twice in November. Even yesterday's lecture was delivered via Zoom. I'm a bit enraged, but I know that other courses there and elsewhere are even worse, while some are much better. I'm intrigued by how different arrangements can be. Are unions instrumental here? Do faculties have the autonomy to simply decide their own path. What pressures are being exerted and from what directions are they arriving? I do struggle to see how such a pale service can now be justified, but I'm honestly wanting to understand how it's been arrived at. That's a lot of questions, but I'm needing to gain a little insight here, if only to try and resist launching a reactionary rant. I'm about to enter my final year so far its one week , two one hour seminars that are five hours apart and the week after one in person seminar and an online seminar later again five hours later and this will alternate till the end of the trimester 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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