Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Michael W]

Ever wondered how many people did indeed file their 10 day home quarantine into the bin? Wonder no more! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58517123

[ddfg]

With regards to the sustainability of the NHS is it not time to build in a degree of personal responsibility with regards to what services are made available. If we as a country are willing to accept banning people from pretty basic activities such as going to the football or on holiday because they have made a choice not to be vaccinated is it too much to consider the need for private insurance to cover treatment required as a result of personal choice?

Should sporting injuries or circumstances where an individual has received treatment and advice on how to reduce risks to themselves and not acted upon that advice resulting in additional treatments being required be included in the free at the point of delivery ethos of the NHS? An AA advert on TV yesterday had the caveat that repeated call outs for the same problem were not covered, essentially if you dont take any action yourself dont expect us to bale you out, maybe a bit harsh in a health setting but if the NHS is in crisis mode maybe some radical action is required. 

Or what about a reduction in NI Contributions in return for taking out private health insurance to encourage people who are in a position to do so arrange their own health provision and free up capacity in the NHS whilst still making a payment towards its maintenance. 

I am not necessarily in favour of such a move but simply pumping in more money has been tried before and not really made that much of a difference. 

[Abdul_Latif]

3 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

The alternative would be to cut the services the NHS provides, turning it into an emergency service.  I doubt that would be popular.

Without an increase in taxes they will have no choice.

Sadly, many of those opposed to the tax increases needed to fund the NHS properly are the ones who will be most effected by services being cut, and they will not be able to afford the additional private care required in that situation.

It’s a short sighted view that has become too politicised and many will end up poorer in the end if services are cut.

[Jacksgranda]

23 hours ago, Mark Connolly said:

Negative it is.

File me in the pile of "Why are people doing tests?!??!?!?!?!"

That's good

[superbigal]

People just can't see past their political colour of choice and the selfish, but what about me and will just defend the indefendible as the polarisation of opinion reflects.
This all should be about doing the right thing, but self entitlement and ignorance prevents it.  
The reality is, the NHS can't cope. The reality is there has been 41 variants in the last year, of which ten are on the watch list as being possible to bypass vaxxing. One South African variant in particular more dangerous and contagious than anything previous. The reality is Covid continues to spread and kill. Maybe not in the numbers as previous, but we do not know what variant will hit us next and will we be prepared? One could be left wondering that some are even prepared to see loved ones die. Ah but, we need to get to some shite hole in Turkey for our hols. Oh and the price of them pcr's ffs! Beggars belief, but unsurprising as where we are now at as a species.
Meanwhile millions with critical non covid illness are being left undiagnosed or untreated and many are dying. This is NOT down to those who might be supportive of mask wearing, but ALL down to government neglect and incompetence. However not that the uber staunch would have sympathy with any of it, because me me me is a steep hurdle to get over.
 

You attempt to make a point but reference some "shitehole" in Turkey.
How can you expect to be taken seriously when your argument is filled with abusive stuff.
You just come across as bitter.

[Aladdin]

1 minute ago, ddfg said:

With regards to the sustainability of the NHS is it not time to build in a degree of personal responsibility with regards to what services are made available. If we as a country are willing to accept banning people from pretty basic activities such as going to the football or on holiday because they have made a choice not to be vaccinated is it too much to consider the need for private insurance to cover treatment required as a result of personal choice?

Should sporting injuries or circumstances where an individual has received treatment and advice on how to reduce risks to themselves and not acted upon that advice resulting in additional treatments being required be included in the free at the point of delivery ethos of the NHS? An AA advert on TV yesterday had the caveat that repeated call outs for the same problem were not covered, essentially if you dont take any action yourself dont expect us to bale you out, maybe a bit harsh in a health setting but if the NHS is in crisis mode maybe some radical action is required. 

Or what about a reduction in NI Contributions in return for taking out private health insurance to encourage people who are in a position to do so arrange their own health provision and free up capacity in the NHS whilst still making a payment towards its maintenance. 

I am not necessarily in favour of such a move but simply pumping in more money has been tried before and not really made that much of a difference. 

I think anything that discourages people from taking part in sport or exercise is the wrong move.  Whilst there is likely a frustratingly high number of presentations relating to avoidable, repeat issues, adding in another layer of bureaucracy to determine eligibility for a service is unlikely to bring down the cost.  

Savings on NI in return for taking out private health insurance and other ideas like this are interesting but you would have to have an environment where these could be discussed sensibly.  I dont think we are there.

Just now, Abdul_Latif said:

Without an increase in taxes they will have no choice.

Sadly, many of those opposed to the tax increases needed to fund the NHS properly are the ones who will be most effected by services being cut, and they will not be able to afford the additional private care required in that situation.

It’s a short sighted view that has become too politicised and many will end up poorer in the end if services are cut.

Taxes should be increased if the current range of services is what the NHS is to offer.  The problem with the NI increase is it doesn't share the burden equally.  

[Jacksgranda]

21 hours ago, strichener said:

Claims the UK are driven by populism whilst posting about Scottish political party polling as evidence of doing the right thing.

Was going to post a picture of my irony meter but it has just exploded into a 1000000 pieces.

 

At least your calculator's still working...

[Thorongil]

The results are in (partly).

wife positive

me negative. 
kids results not in yet.

[Billy Jean King]

People just can't see past their political colour of choice and the selfish, but what about me and will just defend the indefendible as the polarisation of opinion reflects.
This all should be about doing the right thing, but self entitlement and ignorance prevents it.  
The reality is, the NHS can't cope. The reality is there has been 41 variants in the last year, of which ten are on the watch list as being possible to bypass vaxxing. One South African variant in particular more dangerous and contagious than anything previous. The reality is Covid continues to spread and kill. Maybe not in the numbers as previous, but we do not know what variant will hit us next and will we be prepared? One could be left wondering that some are even prepared to see loved ones die. Ah but, we need to get to some shite hole in Turkey for our hols. Oh and the price of them pcr's ffs! Beggars belief, but unsurprising as where we are now at as a species.
Meanwhile millions with critical non covid illness are being left undiagnosed or untreated and many are dying. This is NOT down to those who might be supportive of mask wearing, but ALL down to government neglect and incompetence. However not that the uber staunch would have sympathy with any of it, because me me me is a steep hurdle to get over.
 

Decent attempt if you had substituted say Algarve for Turkey given Turkey has been on the red list for most of this year. Your about 3 months too late making this all about wanting a holiday !

[The Master]

Quote

Out of the tens of thousands of Covid deaths recorded in England in the first half of the year, 256 were in fully vaccinated people, according to the ONS. 

These “breakthrough” deaths are in people who have had two jabs and first tested positive more than two weeks after their second dose. 

These rare deaths mainly took place in people over the age of 84 and were seen slightly more often in men (61%) than women (39%). 

They were more likely to happen for people who were immunocompromised - 13% compared with about 5% of Covid deaths in people who were unvaccinated or not yet fully vaccinated.

The figures cover the period between 2 January and 2 July, when there were a total of 51,281 deaths involving Covid recorded in England.

Only 0.5% of COVID deaths in England from January-July were in fully-vaccinated people, with a median age of 84 (vs. 82 for non-COVID deaths). 

But clearly we just don't know if the vaccines work. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

The Tories are backtracking already on what Javid said yesterday. The official line this morning is that the idea of vaccine passports is still 'open'. 

For those wanking themselves into a frenzy yesterday about Westminster throwing away restrictions while Scotland imposes them, just remember that the Tories are the ultimate populist government.....they'll say something today to please certain people, and then they'll say the opposite tomorrow to please others. 

The last 18 months, they've backtracked so often they've turned themselves inside out a dozen times. And they are barefaced about it all. What does a promise matter when we can turn it into a lie within 10 minutes ? Who cares ?

 

 

I've noticed that it's usually the Junior ministers who are sent out with the negative statement or one which is likely to cause problems and depending on the severity of the backlash, they're then thrown under the bus as one of the big hitters comes out with the u turn statement, almost insinuating that the junior punter got it wrong / was out of step and that the Government never ever intended in implementing this terrible policy (whatever it was this time) in the first place, as they're really all good guys looking out for the ordinary man and woman in the street at all times.

The sad thing being, that so many seem to be buying it !!!

[ICTChris]

1 hour ago, Michael W said:

The health budget was just over 25% of the total UK tax take in 2019/20. In 2020/21 it was a lot higher due to a big increase in spending a sharp reduction in tax revenues. We'll go with 25% since 2020/21 is an outlier. 

UK tax takes - https://www.statista.com/statistics/284298/total-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

UK spending - https://www.statista.com/statistics/301992/health-spending-uk/

It always comes back to the NHS being underfunded and under resourced, but how much money does it need? Is the NI increase going to cut it? It doesn't seem like it will given that money is changing to a ring-fenced social care levy after two years. So then what do we do - are we just going to wave our hands and say it's fucked again, better raise another tax? 

On the resourcing point, the NHS has over 1.3m employees  (over 1.19m FTE). We are always hearing about shortages and the waiting lists would back this up even before covid hit, but how many employees does it need? I know it's not as simple as that as the figure includes many, many people that are not clinicians or medical staff, but you start to question what staffing level is adequate. The UK total workforce is just under 31m, so 4% of the UK workforce is employed by the NHS. One in 25 people in Britain is employed by the NHS - why on earth isn't that enough? It ought to be. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281998/employment-figures-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/nhs-workforce-statistics/may-2021

So, 25% of the tax take the country brings in and also 4% of its workforce. That should be more than enough to sustain a workable system and it seems inexcusable, frankly, that this isn't enough. We need to have a serious conversation about exactly what the NHS needs to function because its resources certainly seem like they ought to be sufficient, but they're not. This will never happen, though, because everyone gets far too defensive when the NHS is criticised and a whole load of strawman arguments about Americans going bust because of healthcare bills will be raised. Fine if we're arguing it should be abolished, but anyone doing so is acting from a very fringe perspective. Saying we should give it more money and hire more nurses is the simple way of avoiding this difficult conversation. 

I value the NHS, don't get me wrong, but object to the way that it appears to be sacrosanct. Criticising it is, in some quarters, the closest thing we now have in the UK to blasphemy. 

I remember reading a tweet by a UK based foreign journalist expressing mild bemusement at the way that the NHS and healthcare is such a dominant subject in British politics, compared to most of Europe.  There are a number of reasons for it, I think - the NHS is the one remaining part of 20th century collectivism that enjoys universal support and is therefore very important to those on the Left; the ongoing gerentocracy in the UK, older people are more likely to use the NHS and more likely to vote leading to the strange situation we have now where a supposed right-wing Tory is whacking up taxes on working people to pay for services for old non-working people; the sentimentalisation of public life by politicians and the media where the NHS becomes a moral barometer of the nation rather than a public service (the classic example being the dancing nurses in the 2012 opening ceremony); the Anglo-centric discussion of the issue, where everyone knows how iniquitous US healthcare is but nobody seems to know or care how far more comparable countries like France or Germany organise healthcare; the ongoing conspiracism you get in UK politics where people think that the NHS is deliberately being put under pressure in order to sell it to some unknown person and an unkonwn point in the future.

The other thing that should be acknowledged, especially by black hearted reactionaries like me, is that the NHS does give an excellent standard of care much of the time.  From my personal experience and those of a lot of other people I know in similar positions services like cardiology really provide excellent care.  From a wider perspective, something like the vaccine rollout and the early success is probably due in a large part to the benefits of having a universal centralised healthcare system that is universally trusted - this allowed vulnerable people to be vaccinated efficiently and quickly and saved a lot of avoidable death.  I have a toddler and any time he's needed health care we have had no problem from our GP.  He also needed a minor operation when he was a baby and I couldn't ask for anything more from the doctors or the hospital.

 

[Ron Aldo]

Out of the tens of thousands of Covid deaths recorded in England in the first half of the year, 256 were in fully vaccinated people, according to the ONS. 

These “breakthrough” deaths are in people who have had two jabs and first tested positive more than two weeks after their second dose. 

These rare deaths mainly took place in people over the age of 84 and were seen slightly more often in men (61%) than women (39%). 

They were more likely to happen for people who were immunocompromised - 13% compared with about 5% of Covid deaths in people who were unvaccinated or not yet fully vaccinated.

The figures cover the period between 2 January and 2 July, when there were a total of 51,281 deaths involving Covid recorded in England.

Only 0.5% of COVID deaths in England from January-July were in fully-vaccinated people, with a median age of 84 (vs. 82 for non-COVID deaths). 
But clearly we just don't know if the vaccines work. 
Aye but what about the super duper, all conquering South African variant that TheBruce was talking about?

[Empty It]

Only 0.5% of COVID deaths in England from January-July were in fully-vaccinated people, with a median age of 84 (vs. 82 for non-COVID deaths). 
But clearly we just don't know if the vaccines work. 
Aye but what about the super duper, all conquering South African variant that TheBruce was talking about?

What's the median age of deaths from covid overall in the same time frame?

[The Master]

6 minutes ago, Empty It said:

15 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Only 0.5% of COVID deaths in England from January-July were in fully-vaccinated people, with a median age of 84 (vs. 82 for non-COVID deaths). 
But clearly we just don't know if the vaccines work. 
Aye but what about the super duper, all conquering South African variant that TheBruce was talking about?

What's the median age of deaths from covid overall in the same time frame?

The median age of non-breakthrough deaths involving COVID ("breakthrough" = died after testing positive 14+ days after their 2nd does) is 82.

The overall median age will therefore be between 82-84...quite possibly 83.

Edited September 13, 2021 by The Master

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Abdul_Latif said:

Without an increase in taxes they will have no choice.

Sadly, many of those opposed to the tax increases needed to fund the NHS properly are the ones who will be most effected by services being cut, and they will not be able to afford the additional private care required in that situation.

It’s a short sighted view that has become too politicised and many will end up poorer in the end if services are cut.

An increase in taxes is not needed to provide funding to the NHS. A decrease in the defence budget and permanently scrapping nonsense vanity projects like Trident and HS2 can be our starting point, as well as a rationalisation of how the health system actually operates. 

Simply throwing 'more taxes' at the problem is not going to work on its own and is hardly sustainable either. 

[Detournement]

28 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Only 0.5% of COVID deaths in England from January-July were in fully-vaccinated people, with a median age of 84 (vs. 82 for non-COVID deaths). 
But clearly we just don't know if the vaccines work. 
Aye but what about the super duper, all conquering South African variant that TheBruce was talking about?

That's a misleading stat though because nearly no one in the UK was 2 weeks by their second dose in February. 

This is more relevant.

[Abdul_Latif]

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

An increase in taxes is not needed to provide funding to the NHS. A decrease in the defence budget and permanently scrapping nonsense vanity projects like Trident and HS2 can be our starting point, as well as a rationalisation of how the health system actually operates. 

Simply throwing 'more taxes' at the problem is not going to work on its own and is hardly sustainable either. 

A very valid point, well made.

[djchapsticks]

59 minutes ago, TheBruce said:

As usual the pissing contest begins from the deniers.

It's simple, the Doc's say they have no more to give, 50,000 Doc's short, as the ambulance service say they have no more to give. IF the NHS is again overwhelmed and its getting there, then further restrictions will be applied, no matter what any politico says now.

However, the usual deniers say they know better.

Bookmark for winter.

Asking folk to bookmark a post to prove you are right about people dying is a much fucking weirder pissing contest than anything you are getting upset about from others.

[GTee]

4 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Thing is though that Frankie runs a business which has been directly affected by this stuff.

I think his voice is worth hearing in comparison to those of us who are not affected by it at all.

Don't you agree?

Yes. Not sure why I typed that, even with a few beers inside me. Understand and sympathise with his viewpoint. Also disagree with vaccine passports fwiw.