Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Jambomo]

28 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Zero Covid ffs. How on earth is that possible? 

In the short term I don’t think that it is. Long term perhaps they are thinking of it more like measles etc where vaccination etc mean it’s more or less gone (till the anti-vaxxers showed up). 

[Billy Jean King]

I don’t know if anybody read the story about the two young women from Leicestershire who were finned by a mob heavy police force. They drove 5 miles in their own cars to go a socially distanced walk in a quite area. They stayed 2 metres apart and were confronted by a police van and 2 cars. The women had coffee cups they’d brought from home, they were told this was classed as a “picnic” (despite the fact they weren’t sitting down drinking them) and fined £200 each. If you think this is acceptable then you’re part of the problem. 

The 5 mins was a drive from their county Leicestershire into Derbyshire. That seems to be the issue. It was pointed out in a fairly balanced BBC article by an ex Ch Constable that had they driven within their LA it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Derbyshire police publicly stated that the beauty spot targeted by their officers had seen overflowing car parks and tons of people travelling into the spot in the county to walk and that wasn't allowed. They targeted specifically cars arriving from outwith Derbyshire. Not sure what's too wrong in that. Similar to police did here in areas like the Trossachs and Loch lomond in the summer.

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, s_dog said:

Exactly this, although it feels like its a total pie-in-the-sky wish to have. The whole problem is that even when there are intensive care units that are almost on their knees in some parts of the country, when there are some hospitals (I think Belfast & Wales as well as in South East of England) that have cancelled necessary cancer operations, we are still getting people complaining about lockdowns, and the economy, etc.

 

 

And I don't understand how you can't see the logic in what these two are saying? They are looking at the likes of Australia and that's the end game, certainly in comparison to the crazy year we've had in the UK. It would mean holidays anywhere other than Scotland are possibly on hold until enough people are vaccinated everywhere, or else your holidays have to be followed by quarantine, but everything else is more normal.

If you can get the numbers low enough in the first place, local lockdowns straight away with very strong track & trace, and people paid to stay at home to isolate, that'll keep the numbers low enough so that we don't need the same restrictions in our everyday life. And as long as we don't import cases from abroad by restricting foreign travel, or perhaps letting people go abroad for one week and use the second week of holiday to quarantine when they return, then that'll keep the cases to a minimum.

In July in Scotland, if people hadn't went away on holiday to England & Spain where the cases were much higher, our numbers were so low that tightly controlling travel in and out of Scotland could have resulted in things staying the way they were in the summer. Instead, a huge proportion of our cases were linked back to these areas, the numbers grew and we ended up with the tiered lockdowns. The virus has had the chance to mutate to a more transmissible strain as it was always fairly high in parts of England and now we've ended up back in complete lockdown because of it. 

Hoping the vaccine will stop enough people getting seriously ill & dying, but without knowing it prevents transmission will always keep the virus circulating, and there is the danger we'll likely end up with this continual cycle of restrictions and lockdowns.  If we also try to drive the numbers so low at the same time, maybe there is the chance to have much less restrictions and only ever small local lockdowns for a couple of weeks. 

 

Australia would be the end game if we didn’t have a vaccine, which we do. 
 

Your solution is that we continue to have lockdowns when a few cases pop up, despite the fact all vulnerable people will have been vaccinated. 
 

Why would there be a continual cycle of restrictions if no one is dying from COVID. What difference does transmission make if no one can get seriously ill from it. 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I disagree with a lot you say on this thread but that story is completely nuts and gives the lie to the suggestion that all that's needed is 'tougher enforcement' of the rules - the problem with giving the police sweeping powers is that they'll wind up doing crazy stuff like this. It's a bit similar to that story we saw earlier in the pandemic when a police force (was it in Wales?) stated they'd be inspecting people's trolleys at the supermarket. 

This is clearly unacceptable but I would hope it’s just a handful of jobsworth officers acting like this as they really need the public onside for this long haul

Alot of people get quite nervous when being dealt with by the police and reading the story it seems that is exactly what’s happened here.

But the important to highlight that they hadn’t broken the law however by accepting a fixed penalty you are admitting the offence.

Remember you do not have to accept a fixed penalty! If you are sure you haven’t broken the law refuse it, the officer will then have to charge you ( you won’t be arrested for something pissy like that , it’s done on the spot) send any evidence of criminality- (in this case none because it’s not against the law to drive short distance for exercise) to the procurator fiscal who will have to decide whether to start proceedings or dismiss the case , no evidence =no case
Or, more likely they will just give you a verbal ticking off and leave you alone.
It’s not unreasonable behaviour to expect the police to do their job properly

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, Detournement said:

It's not. 

We are going to be under restrictions for a long, long time. 

Like what happened in 1918 with the Spanish flu? It all depends on how long immunity lasts after people have had it or been vaccinated. Nobody knows for sure yet on that but saw a study yesterday that suggested it was still holding up strong in New York after eight months.

[Thereisalight..]

8 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The 5 mins was a drive from their county Leicestershire into Derbyshire. That seems to be the issue. It was pointed out in a fairly balanced BBC article by an ex Ch Constable that had they driven within their LA it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Derbyshire police publicly stated that the beauty spot targeted by their officers had seen overflowing car parks and tons of people travelling into the spot in the county to walk and that wasn't allowed. They targeted specifically cars arriving from outwith Derbyshire. Not sure what's too wrong in that. Similar to police did here in areas like the Trossachs and Loch lomond in the summer.

Obviously English rules are different but here we can drive up to 5 miles outwith the LA for excercise. I don’t see that as an issue. It wasn’t like they were going shopping or anything indoors, it was a reservoir they were at, not the fcking January sales at Tesco. When the ladies went it was clearly not overflowing as they stated they even parked 2 car spaces away from one another and there was hardly anyone else there. I just find it madness and a waste of police resources 

[Billy Jean King]

This is clearly unacceptable but I would hope it’s just a handful of jobsworth officers acting like this as they really need the public onside for this long haul

Alot of people get quite nervous when being dealt with by the police and reading the story it seems that is exactly what’s happened here.

But the important to highlight that they hadn’t broken the law however by accepting a fixed penalty you are admitting the offence.

Remember you do not have to accept a fixed penalty! If you are sure you haven’t broken the law refuse it, the officer will then have to charge you ( you won’t be arrested for something pissy like that , it’s done on the spot) send any evidence of criminality- (in this case none because it’s not against the law to drive short distance for exercise) to the procurator fiscal who will have to decide whether to start proceedings or dismiss the case , no evidence =no case
Or, more likely they will just give you a verbal ticking off and leave you alone.
It’s not unreasonable behaviour to expect the police to do their job properly

The legislation is too vague "local area" it's worded as in England so totally open to interpretation by authorities and public alike. Derbyshire police interpreted that as Derbyshire ie their area of policing but whether that would stand up in law or mot no one knows. Lines need to be drawn somewhere but as it stands neither public or police know where they stand hence situations like this. Thankfully we tend not to police that way up here.

[Billy Jean King]

Obviously English rules are different but here we can drive up to 5 miles outwith the LA for excercise. I don’t see that as an issue. It wasn’t like they were going shopping or anything indoors, it was a reservoir they were at, not the fcking January sales at Tesco. When the ladies went it was clearly not overflowing as they stated they even parked 2 car spaces away from one another and there was hardly anyone else there. I just find it madness and a waste of police resources 

The police clearly targeted an area that had caused concern in the past. As I say our laws are better defined as you correctly quote above. Heavy handed yes but left open to interpretation none the less. A full car park could easily become a source of infection especially with this new strain

[tamthebam]

4 hours ago, bendan said:

Massive case numbers in Ireland - 8248 reported yesterday. Made a bit of an arse, feck, drink of things in December.

FTFY

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

Noticeable increase in the police presence around the Pentlands today. Police cars at the Hillend, Castlelaw and Flotterstone entrances, the road was coned to deter parking. Also saw two police cars patrolling the Biggar road.

(I was out for essential childcare reasons before I get accused of some sort of nefarious skulduggery.)

[Forest_Fifer]

The 5 mins was a drive from their county Leicestershire into Derbyshire. That seems to be the issue. It was pointed out in a fairly balanced BBC article by an ex Ch Constable that had they driven within their LA it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Derbyshire police publicly stated that the beauty spot targeted by their officers had seen overflowing car parks and tons of people travelling into the spot in the county to walk and that wasn't allowed. They targeted specifically cars arriving from outwith Derbyshire. Not sure what's too wrong in that. Similar to police did here in areas like the Trossachs and Loch lomond in the summer.

I'm driving my daughter back to her student flat in Derby on Monday. She has work to do and its not really feasible for her to do it here. I'm now concerned that Derbyshire police will have checkpoints on the fucking A52.

[Thereisalight..]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

7 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

Obviously English rules are different but here we can drive up to 5 miles outwith the LA for excercise. I don’t see that as an issue. It wasn’t like they were going shopping or anything indoors, it was a reservoir they were at, not the fcking January sales at Tesco. When the ladies went it was clearly not overflowing as they stated they even parked 2 car spaces away from one another and there was hardly anyone else there. I just find it madness and a waste of police resources 

The police clearly targeted an area that had caused concern in the past. As I say our laws are better defined as you correctly quote above. Heavy handed yes but left open to interpretation none the less. A full car park could easily become a source of infection especially with this new strain

Is the new strain more transmissible outdoors? Not being a dick I just genuinely don’t know. I see it no different to a busy car park at Silverburn or Asda 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, s_dog said:

Exactly this, although it feels like its a total pie-in-the-sky wish to have. The whole problem is that even when there are intensive care units that are almost on their knees in some parts of the country, when there are some hospitals (I think Belfast & Wales as well as in South East of England) that have cancelled necessary cancer operations, we are still getting people complaining about lockdowns, and the economy, etc.

 

 

And I don't understand how you can't see the logic in what these two are saying? They are looking at the likes of Australia and that's the end game, certainly in comparison to the crazy year we've had in the UK. It would mean holidays anywhere other than Scotland are possibly on hold until enough people are vaccinated everywhere, or else your holidays have to be followed by quarantine, but everything else is more normal.

If you can get the numbers low enough in the first place, local lockdowns straight away with very strong track & trace, and people paid to stay at home to isolate, that'll keep the numbers low enough so that we don't need the same restrictions in our everyday life. And as long as we don't import cases from abroad by restricting foreign travel, or perhaps letting people go abroad for one week and use the second week of holiday to quarantine when they return, then that'll keep the cases to a minimum.

In July in Scotland, if people hadn't went away on holiday to England & Spain where the cases were much higher, our numbers were so low that tightly controlling travel in and out of Scotland could have resulted in things staying the way they were in the summer. Instead, a huge proportion of our cases were linked back to these areas, the numbers grew and we ended up with the tiered lockdowns. The virus has had the chance to mutate to a more transmissible strain as it was always fairly high in parts of England and now we've ended up back in complete lockdown because of it. 

Hoping the vaccine will stop enough people getting seriously ill & dying, but without knowing it prevents transmission will always keep the virus circulating, and there is the danger we'll likely end up with this continual cycle of restrictions and lockdowns.  If we also try to drive the numbers so low at the same time, maybe there is the chance to have much less restrictions and only ever small local lockdowns for a couple of weeks. 

 

Utter pish. If there are enough people in vulnerable groups protected from serious illness and death in Scotland then it doesn't matter if the virus is re-imported to the country through foreign travel. How is it going to continue to circulate anyway when the only current host in the UK (that we know of) are human beings when they are being increasingly vaccinated against it? That's herd immunity being achieved through science, right there. If that means that a bunch of 20 year olds go to Ibiza and one of them is off work with a cough for a few days then who cares.

Previous 'cycles of lockdown' are completely irrelevant because back then there was no means of protecting vulnerable groups from serious illness. That (with the corollary of their impact on the NHS) was the entire fucking point of lockdown. If vaccination offers the protection that antiviral drugs or other symptomatic treatment could do then that problem is solved and there is zero justification for any continued mandatory restrictions.

What we're seeing here is yet another shifting of the goalposts to worry about an 'issue' that would be completely and utterly irrelevant in the case of any other infectious disease.

Edited January 9, 2021 by vikingTON

[Billy Jean King]

I'm driving my daughter back to her student flat in Derby on Monday. She has work to do and its not really feasible for her to do it here. I'm now concerned that Derbyshire police will have checkpoints on the fucking A52.

I very much doubt it unless it's regarded as a well known beauty spot attracting enough visitors to overflow car parks. It wasn't random from the way it was reported

[Billy Jean King]

Is the new strain more transmissible outdoors? Not being a dick I just genuinely don’t know. I see it no different to a busy car park at Silverburn or Asda 

If it's more transmissible it will be everywhere. Yes transmission in general is less outdoors but it will be 70% more indoors or out.

[Binos]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

Utter pish. If there are enough people in vulnerable groups protected from serious illness and death in Scotland then it doesn't matter if the virus is re-imported to the country through foreign travel. How is it going to continue to circulate anyway when the only current host in the UK (that we know of) are human beings when they are being increasingly vaccinated against it? That's herd immunity being achieved through science, right there. If that means that a bunch of 20 year olds go to Ibiza and one of them is off work with a cough for a few days then who cares.

Previous 'cycles of lockdown' are completely irrelevant because back then there was no means of protecting vulnerable groups from serious illness. That (with the corollary of their impact on the NHS) was the entire fucking point of lockdown. If vaccination offers the protection that antiviral drugs or other symptomatic treatment could do then that's problem solved. 

What we're seeing here is yet another shifting of the goalposts to worry about an 'issue' that would be completely and utterly irrelevant in the case of any other infectious disease.

Exactly, we need herd immunity fast through vaccination

Other countries who have not yet done so would be restricting no doubt

[HibsFan]

Get the feeling that this summer there's going to be an all out civil war between the swivel-eyed Zero COVID brigade and us normal folk who just want to have a pint and watch Scotland's games in the pub.

[Binos]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

9 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

Is the new strain more transmissible outdoors? Not being a dick I just genuinely don’t know. I see it no different to a busy car park at Silverburn or Asda 

If it's more transmissible it will be everywhere. Yes transmission in general is less outdoors but it will be 70% more indoors or out.

Can you really get any coronavirus from anyone outdoors

It's highly unlikely

[Empty It]

Get the feeling that this summer there's going to be an all out civil war between the swivel-eyed Zero COVID brigade and us normal folk who just want to have a pint and watch Scotland's games in the pub. [emoji38]

The zero covid brigade being the ones with absolutely no social life under normal circumstances so dont see the issue with restrictions.

[Binos]

1 minute ago, HibsFan said:

Get the feeling that this summer there's going to be an all out civil war between the swivel-eyed Zero COVID brigade and us normal folk who just want to have a pint and watch Scotland's games in the pub.

Honestly think it'll take care of itself

When the older and shielding population have been vaccinated and loosening restrictions toe dipped

If numbers of deaths don't go up, will just naturally go more and more back to normal