Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Gordon EF]

58 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

Greece controlled it simply by locking down two weeks earlier. 4000 deaths could have been 400 had we done so.
Its inexcusable and the snp have to answer why and not hide behind whatabootery and pseudo science that suited the economy not humans.
Greece was in financial ruin was it not?
Let's compare other countries when it's all over. Aye ok, great argument.
They killed 3500 people for the economy and made the economy worse than a quicker lockdown would have done.
A complete and utter failure of leadership.

The Scottish Government could not lockdown before Westminster did because they have no power to introduce a furlough scheme or stop people coming into the country.

I'm not not particularly impressed with how the SNP have handled the things that are within their power to handle. But to have a go at them for not doing things they have no power to do is just stupid.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Gordon EF

[Frankie S]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

I'm not sure how the SG was supposed to completely shut down the Scottish economy while Westminster was still merrily ploughing headfirst into Herd Immunity. Insurers would have just told Scots businesses to go get fucked, and there's no way Westminster would have rolled out any emergency support measures exclusively for Scots workers and businesses while they were telling everyone south of the border everything was fine to just stay open and trading.

Insurance has absolutely nothing to do with it. I’ve heard the myth repeated many times that because the government told businesses to close they’re somehow covered insurance-wise. As it happens, I closed my outlets (a pub / restaurant / live music venue and a club) shortly after Boris recommended that everyone stay away from pubs and clubs, on the basis that if it wasn’t safe for customers, then by implication it wasn’t safe for staff, and several days before we were instructed to do so. That was also long before the furlough scheme was introduced, so there was no safety net. As far as insurance goes, we wouldn’t have been covered either way, so it made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Pubs and clubs who waited to be told to shut are not in receipt of bumper insurance payouts I can assure you. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Frankie S

[D.A.F.C]

OK. So you made a statement, were asked for examples to back it up, provided literally zero and are now throwing a strop.
But it's all the fault of SNP supporters?

The snp hardcore supporters cost Scotland with their militant and off-putting behaviour calling naysayers idiots.
As for Scottish talent just look at the labour front bench since 1990.
The more the snp fan boys shout down anyone who argues against the snp the more likely it is that we will lose another referendum.
We need independence, covid has shown that and if it's so obvious you dont need to shout about it because it will happen.

[Gordon EF]

Just now, D.A.F.C said:

The snp hardcore supporters cost Scotland with their militant and off-putting behaviour calling naysayers idiots.
As for Scottish talent just look at the labour front bench since 1990.
The more the snp fan boys shout down anyone who argues against the snp the more likely it is that we will lose another referendum.
We need independence, covid has shown that and if it's so obvious you dont need to shout about it because it will happen.

I don't disagree that there are a core of independence/SNP supporters than are blinkered idiots.

I've already said that it was blatantly true that far more Labour talent went to WM (or, maybe more accurately, stayed there ) in the early days of the parliament. You seem to be saying that's still the case now that the SNP are the dominant Scottish party in both parliaments. I don't agree.

I didn't even think you were making an argument against the SNP with that post, never mind trying to shout you down for it.

[bennett]

The SNP are limited in what they can do by not being an independent country yet, we can't shut our borders while we're part of the uk and Boris's dithering before implementing lockdown played a huge part in this.  No doubt he'll find a way for his two main advisors to carry the can for his inadequate leadership. 

 

 

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Greece controlled it simply by locking down two weeks earlier. 4000 deaths could have been 400 had we done so.
Its inexcusable and the snp have to answer why and not hide behind whatabootery and pseudo science that suited the economy not humans.
Greece was in financial ruin was it not?
Let's compare other countries when it's all over. Aye ok, great argument.
They killed 3500 people for the economy and made the economy worse than a quicker lockdown would have done.
A complete and utter failure of leadership.

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. 


Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) .

 

No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written by armchair hindsight experts.

 

The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears.

 

I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown.

 

I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues.

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.


Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease.

 

I also think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse:

 

* Over a decade of underfunding

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly.


It's not as simple as some make out - there's all shades of grey when it comes to the decisions - I don't think the Scottish Government has been perfect - far from it - but equally some of the scorn thrown is complete over the top. Hindsight revisionism is a dangerous thing.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The SNP are limited in what they can do by not being an independent country yet, we can't shut our borders while we're part of the uk and Boris's dithering before implementing lockdown played a huge part in this.  No doubt he'll find a way for his two main advisors to carry the can for his inadequate leadership. 
 
 
 

Okay who hijacked Bennett's account?

[D.A.F.C]

2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. 


Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) .

 

No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written by armchair hindsight experts.

 

The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears.

 

I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown.

 

I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues.

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.


Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease.

 

I also think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse:

 

* Over a decade of underfunding

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly.


It's not as simple as some make out - there's all shades of grey when it comes to the decisions - I don't think the Scottish Government has been perfect - far from it - but equally some of the scorn thrown is complete over the top. Hindsight revisionism is a dangerous thing.

China and Italy didn’t lockdown for a laugh, there’s obviously a link with the economy and health but what we’ve done is extremely naive and shortsighted. Other countries who made the sensible and obvious choice are now recovering financially at a quicker rate then we are. To say that large gatherings, facemasks and leaving schools open made no difference then do a complete u-turn deserves all the criticism thrown at them. I don’t think it’s over the top at all. Our government and others were quick enough to sneer at China or Italy and say it was down to lies or demographics we won’t be effected. Let’s all shake hands with coronavirus patients in hospital.

Will ask again how can Greece, who was supposedly a financial wreck, come out of this looking so much better?

The uk approach is like driving a car at a wall and saying that we will hit it so there’s no point in breaking because we must keep the car running.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

China and Italy didn’t lockdown for a laugh, there’s obviously a link with the economy and health but what we’ve done is extremely naive and shortsighted. Other countries who made the sensible and obvious choice are now recovering financially at a quicker rate then we are. To say that large gatherings, facemasks and leaving schools open made no difference then do a complete u-turn deserves all the criticism thrown at them. I don’t think it’s over the top at all. Our government and others were quick enough to sneer at China or Italy and say it was down to lies or demographics we won’t be effected. Let’s all shake hands with coronavirus patients in hospital.
Will ask again how can Greece, who was supposedly a financial wreck, come out of this looking so much better?
The uk approach is like driving a car at a wall and saying that we will hit it so there’s no point in breaking because we must keep the car running.

Without the economic levers it was not possible for the Scottish Government to go it alone.

It is utter naivety and economic illiteracy to think they could.

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. 


Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) .

 

No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written by armchair hindsight experts.

 

The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears.

 

I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown.

 

I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues.

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.


Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease.

 

I also think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse:

 

* Over a decade of underfunding

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly.


It's not as simple as some make out - there's all shades of grey when it comes to the decisions - I don't think the Scottish Government has been perfect - far from it - but equally some of the scorn thrown is complete over the top. Hindsight revisionism is a dangerous thing.

Tl; dr.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Tl; dr.

[Todd_is_God]

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23Q1J9

[peasy23]

Insurance has absolutely nothing to do with it. I’ve heard the myth repeated many times that because the government told businesses to close they’re somehow covered insurance-wise. As it happens, I closed my outlets (a pub / restaurant / live music venue and a club) shortly after Boris recommended that everyone stay away from pubs and clubs, on the basis that if it wasn’t safe for customers, then by implication it wasn’t safe for staff, and several days before we were instructed to do so. That was also long before the furlough scheme was introduced, so there was no safety net. As far as insurance goes, we wouldn’t have been covered either way, so it made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Pubs and clubs who waited to be told to shut are not in receipt of bumper insurance payouts I can assure you. 

Played golf with a guy the other week who is a loss adjuster for an insurance company dealing solely with commercial policies. He has been dealing with claims from businesses for loss of income due to being forced to close, but said the number of policies that actually have a specific clause that will see them get any sort of pay out is miniscule.

[Thereisalight..]

2 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

China and Italy didn’t lockdown for a laugh, there’s obviously a link with the economy and health but what we’ve done is extremely naive and shortsighted. Other countries who made the sensible and obvious choice are now recovering financially at a quicker rate then we are. To say that large gatherings, facemasks and leaving schools open made no difference then do a complete u-turn deserves all the criticism thrown at them. I don’t think it’s over the top at all. Our government and others were quick enough to sneer at China or Italy and say it was down to lies or demographics we won’t be effected. Let’s all shake hands with coronavirus patients in hospital.

Will ask again how can Greece, who was supposedly a financial wreck, come out of this looking so much better?

The uk approach is like driving a car at a wall and saying that we will hit it so there’s no point in breaking because we must keep the car running.

Such an apt advert below your post!

 

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, peasy23 said:

Played golf with a guy the other week who is a loss adjuster for an insurance company dealing solely with commercial policies. He has been dealing with claims from businesses for loss of income due to being forced to close, but said the number of policies that actually have a specific clause that will see them get any sort of pay out is miniscule.

I can imagine a typical conversation.

Force Majeure?  Force Majeure? What are you talking about?  Speak English.

Even the auto correct on my phone refuses to recognise this term.

[SlipperyP]

Scotland(government( fucked this.........

[Aubrey Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

 

Ah it's the next briefing, nice and blank ahead of the upcoming U turn.

[Mark Connolly]

9 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

OK. So you made a statement, were asked for examples to back it up, provided literally zero and are now throwing a strop.

But it's all the fault of SNP supporters?

Makes a change from it being the fault of his colleagues.

[cameron2000]

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. 

 

 

Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) .

 

 

 

No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written by armchair hindsight experts.

 

 

 

The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears.

 

 

 

I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown.

 

 

 

I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

 

 

There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues.

 

 

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

 

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

 

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

 

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

 

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.

 

 

Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease.

 

 

 

I also think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse:

 

 

 

* Over a decade of underfunding

 

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

 

* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning

 

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

 

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

 

 

And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly.

 

 

It's not as simple as some make out - there's all shades of grey when it comes to the decisions - I don't think the Scottish Government has been perfect - far from it - but equally some of the scorn thrown is complete over the top. Hindsight revisionism is a dangerous thing.

You say national emergency planning is the UK’s responsibility and you’re right - well then with that being the case why did Sturgeon litterly chose to create her own guidance different to England at every single stage. I can’t help but feel it’s down to a desire to do better than England.

 

If the Scottish Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place they put themselves there by unnecessarily taking their own path through this.

[Bairnardo]

You say national emergency planning is the UK’s responsibility and you’re right - well then with that being the case why did Sturgeon litterly chose to create her own guidance different to England at every single stage. I can’t help but feel it’s down to a desire to do better than England.
 
If the Scottish Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place they put themselves there by unnecessarily taking their own path through this.

Isn't planning different from response?