Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[jagfox]

[AUFC90]

Agree on the reasoning here - Britain still wouldn't have been able to bridge the twenty-mile ditch in the West*, and the Red Army would have chased the Germans all the way to the English Channel. Would have been interesting to see wht they did then, given their status at the time as allies, and the leftward shift of hte British populace's views which were soon to return a Labour Government.

*Not without serious help from the Russians, and how would that have got to the UK?

 

I just love how D-day is portrayed as decisive in the allies winning the war. It literally made no difference. Was only decisive in ensuring that the US and Britain got a share of the spoils.  

Germanys war had already been lost all the while the Russians were churning out tanks and aircraft at a terrifying rate. Hitler underestimated the Russians. He thought they were inferior and had no idea of their industrial capacity and sheer determination to defend their country at all costs.

 

Russian grit and a f**k ton of factories in Siberia won world war 2.

 

 

 

[Todd_is_God]

5 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

While I'm not directly affected (Gov't Employee, still working on full pay), I do wonder about some of this. Are enough people going to have cash in their pockets to be going to gigs, football, even the pub? People have adapted (have had to) during this time, and have discovered the joys of non-prepacked entertainment, human interaction (weird though it seems, I think this is the case in a lot of ways), and even something as basic as exercise or simply going for a walk in the open air.

Also over the last few weeks, people have being going on about learning new skills. I'd guess a proportion of these are peoplelearning to do their own nails or (remembering my isues trying to source some clippers) cutting/buzzing/shzving their own hair. These are a couple of examples, but people have been doing things for themselves which they would have previously have paid to have done for them. How many continue to do so, especially if money is tight, will determine how the local economy recovers.

If you are suggesting that pubs will open earlier than expected as you think they will be less populated this might be right.

Germany have opened beer gardens. If bubbles are introduced there is no reason why a beer garden here can't open and restrict each 'bubble' to be 2m apart

[pandarilla]

The lockdown needs to end now.......just had a note through our door inviting us to play street bingo 

That sounds amazing. Bingo is seriously underrated.

Make it for cash and I'm moving to your street.

Nosy neighbour bingo:
"Doesn't join in the weekly clap - Number 15"
"Leaves their bin on the pavement all week - Number 27"
etc

[emoji1787]

The virus and lockdown have simultaneously brought out the best in people, and the worst.

[madwullie]

3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Is that model not from the same place that said we'd be looking at 3k deaths per day in mid April and 90,000 total deaths by the middle of this month about 2 days before we hit our peak? Even adding on the care home deaths that weren't on our figures at the time we were never anywhere near that.

The US looks like it's in that plateua stage that lasts a few weeks. It isn't currently showing any signs of shooting rapidly upward.

The US is a strange one because its been held up by the carnage in NY. Now that NY is dropping, a bunch of the other states are rising and it looks like a plateau over all. Given states are announcing record deaths per day at the same time as they are reopening, I think we can safely say they will be on an upward trend again in the next fortnight or so. Projected to hit 3k deaths per day in a couple of weeks. 

Given they seem particularly stupid when it comes to covid, I think we should really cut them out of all comparisons, as they basically seem to be doing everything they can to spread it further. 

[Jacksgranda]

3 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

I just love how D-day is portrayed as decisive in the allies winning the war. It literally made no difference. Was only decisive in ensuring that the US and Britain got a share of the spoils.

Germanys war had already been lost all the while the Russians were churning out tanks and aircraft at a terrifying rate. Hitler underestimated the Russians. He thought they were inferior and had no idea of their industrial capacity and sheer determination to defend their country at all costs.

Russian grit won world war 2.

What were these "spoils" exactly?

Where do France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg figure in this "spoil" grabbing? And Italy, who switched sides. Which "spoils" did they get?

How about Poland and Czechoslavkia? How did they fare out "spoil" wise?

[AUFC90]

What were these "spoils" exactly?
Where do France, Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourg figure in this "spoil" grabbing? And Italy, who switched sides. Which "spoils" did they get?
How about Poland and Czechoslavkia? How did they fare out "spoil" wise?

Not as much as the ones that won the war clearly [emoji23]. Are you trying to say repatriations weren't worked out ? Massive companies in Germanys Rhur valley split up between certain countries etc ?

Russia gaining territories all over the shot including Prussia, everything West of Berlin and parts of Finland never happened ?

[madwullie]

2 hours ago, Wee Willie said:

I ken that, what I meant was my situation just now I'm comfy with it.

I am puzzled myself why no one has contacted me but as I say just now I'm okay.

My Lassie works shifts in a cottage hospital in a village and if she was to get the virus then I'm screwed messages-wise.

I'd probably then enquire re food deliveries.

Although I've got tae say I'm a fussy bugger foodwise and judging by the food you listed I could see me once a week, along with anyone else in the building who gets food parcels, having a mini market in the common room and swapping items (6 feet apart of course).

I devoured them in the 1950's but it amazed me that the H*ns were always dummkopfs.

 

Thanks for that advice but as I said to Jacksgranda I'm a fussy bugger and I would have to reject most of the food box.

As an example, I'm diabetic and I'm no supposed to eat anything full of salt or sugar.

ATM my Lassie kens what to buy or no buy. Do the food boxes cater for the likes of me?

Noone has contacted my dad, and he's 78 and has a strange blood cancer. I think it's an accidental oversight. Might be worthwhile contacting your gp for clarification. Worst case scenario and your lassie isn't able to drop of messages for whatever reason, you'll have the option of the food box / deliveries on the bench as it were just in case. 

[renton]

14 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

I just love how D-day is portrayed as decisive in the allies winning the war. It literally made no difference. Was only decisive in ensuring that the US and Britain got a share of the spoils.  

Germanys war had already been lost all the while the Russians were churning out tanks and aircraft at a terrifying rate. Hitler underestimated the Russians. He thought they were inferior and had no idea of their industrial capacity and sheer determination to defend their country at all costs.

 

Russian grit and a f**k ton of factories in Siberia won world war 2.

 

 

 

Bear in mind that fully a third of the German army and over half it's airforce were in the west or Mediterranean and thousands of artillery pieces that should have been getting aimed at Russian tanks were stuck aiming at Allied bombers. The Russians may have provided the primary, bulk effort but that doesn't mean the Western alliance contribution was not decisive. 

The Eastern front might well have looked very different if 60 fresh, fully equipped divisions and 100% increase in air resources been available to the Germans in 1943/44.

The other way to look at it is that even if the allied invasion of Normandy was not decisive in the destruction of Germany it was overall important to winning the war in Western Europe to allow the Western way of life to flourish.

Edited May 6, 2020 by renton

[Dunfermline Don]

Glad that I started a wee sub forum in this about WW2. I will leave my final word on the subject with this guy!

[madwullie]

2 hours ago, HeartsOfficialMoaner said:

20% of Hotels in Cattolica, Italy don't want to open and one of the reasons is if staff catch the virus at work are they could find themselves facing civil and criminal cases.

NHS are going to pay compensation. What about other employers? Has anything been decided yet? The employer has a responsibility to make sure the workplace is safe?

Republicans on the US are currently trying to pass a bill that will absolve employers from responsibility if their employees catch it. This is against a background of 2k deaths a day and rising, with businesses about to be able to reopen. Absolute fucking scumbags. 

 

Some businesses are actually advertising that they won't force their staff to wear PPE  

[Jacksgranda]

17 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Not as much as the ones that won the war clearly . Are you trying to say repatriations weren't worked out ? Massive companies in Germanys Rhur valley split up between certain countries etc ?

Russia gaining territories all over the shot including Prussia, everything West of Berlin and parts of Finland never happened ?

O.K., I'll spell it out. What were the western allies "spoils"? (It's fairly obvious what the Soviet spoils were, which was iimplicit in your post.)

Edited May 6, 2020 by Jacksgranda

[madmitch]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

Which is completely different to any other country?

How many deaths has New Zealand had? Do they have any onver-70s and people with underlying health conditions?

The facts is: Britain fckd this up big time and we now have 50000 premature deaths. The Tories need to see the inside of a court on this.

Cases                    Scotland        12,437             NZ 1,488

Active Cases      Scotland            3,130             NZ 151

Deaths                 Scotland             1,620              NZ   21 (more than half of these from one dementia unit in Christchurch)

Government meeting on Monday to review. We could all be back at work on Wednesday. 

It wasn't rocket science, NZ went early and went hard.  Went into strict lockdown 3 days after the first case of community transmission.  Nae herd immunity pish here.

Edited May 6, 2020 by madmitch
missed the close bracket

[AUFC90]

Bear in mind that fully a third of the German army and over half it's airforce were in the west or Mediterranean and thousands of artillery pieces that should have been getting aimed at Russian tanks were stuck aiming at Allied bombers. The Russians may have provided the primary, bulk effort but that doesn't mean the Western alliance contribution was not decisive. 

The Eastern front might well have looked very different if 60 fresh, fully equipped divisions and 100% increase in air resources been available to the Germans in 1943/44.

The other way to look at it is that even if the allied invasion of Normandy was not decisive in the destruction of Germany it was overall important to winning the war in Western Europe to allow the Western way of life to flourish.

The last part was exactly my point. D-Day for Churchill and other leaders was about being in Berlin the same time as the Russians not about winning the war. The war had been lost, Russian was on a complete war footing churning out unbelievable numbers of everything whilst Germany had lost much of its best units and officers in Russia and was severely depleted in resources all over the place. Germany concentrating all its resources in the East would only have delayed the inevitable.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

11 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

If you are suggesting that pubs will open earlier than expected as you think they will be less populated this might be right.

Germany have opened beer gardens. If bubbles are introduced there is no reason why a beer garden here can't open and restrict each 'bubble' to be 2m apart

Eh, no, I'm not. Maybe stick to the graphs - plain English appears to be beyond you.

Just to put down what I do feel about pubs re-opening,

1. Not as many will open as have been closed. One of the most precarious parts of the economy has been properly fúcked by the lockdown.

2. Those that do open may get staff as employment of any kind will be scarce. They may struggle, though, as who wants to stand there being breathed at all day? I sincerely hope that Wetherspoons struggles, as no-one wants to work for a cúnt.

3. Customers may well return in droves. They may also not - see what I actually did  say in the post you quoted. Not only have people found new ways to spend their time, they may feel (I certainly do) that an enclosed space with people making up for lost drinking time may not be the safest or most relaxing place to be.

4. ...and finally, continuing from a point in (3) above, the very idea of concentrating people drinking in one space when they've been stuck inside for a few months just screams "red flag!" for control of guidelines, and even civil obedience. I expect the BH on Friday, and all the Litle Englander/FB Clapper community's response to the VE Day malarkey, may well inform future policy.

[Jacksgranda]

6 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Noone has contacted my dad, and he's 78 and has a strange blood cancer. I think it's an accidental oversight. Might be worthwhile contacting your gp for clarification. Worst case scenario and your lassie isn't able to drop of messages for whatever reason, you'll have the option of the food box / deliveries on the bench as it were just in case. 

At least someone has been in touch -  

That seems very strange - over 70 and cancer, he should have been on somebody's list.

[AUFC90]

O.K., I'll spell it out. What were the western allies "spoils"? (It's fairly obvious what the Soviet spoils were, which wa simplicit in your post.)

Making sure Germany's industrial heartland and one of the largest coal seams in Europe didn't fall into Russian hands would be one of many.

[Todd_is_God]

4 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Eh, no, I'm not. Maybe stick to the graphs - plain English appears to be beyond you.

There's no need to be a dick

[renton]

2 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

8 minutes ago, renton said:

Bear in mind that fully a third of the German army and over half it's airforce were in the west or Mediterranean and thousands of artillery pieces that should have been getting aimed at Russian tanks were stuck aiming at Allied bombers. The Russians may have provided the primary, bulk effort but that doesn't mean the Western alliance contribution was not decisive. 
The Eastern front might well have looked very different if 60 fresh, fully equipped divisions and 100% increase in air resources been available to the Germans in 1943/44.
The other way to look at it is that even if the allied invasion of Normandy was not decisive in the destruction of Germany it was overall important to winning the war in Western Europe to allow the Western way of life to flourish.

The last part was exactly my point. D-Day for Churchill and other leaders was about being in Berlin the same time as the Russians not about winning the war. The war had been lost, Russian was on a complete war footing churning out unbelievable numbers of everything whilst Germany had lost much of its best units and officers in Russia and was severely depleted in resources all over the place. Germany concentrated all its resources in the East would only have delayed the inevitable.

It was about winning the war though: or more precisely winning the war on terms acceptable to the UK and the US. That's a laudable enough goal considering that it prevented the domination of Western Europe by an authoritarian dictatorship, guaranteed security of the UK by keeping both sides of the channel in friendly hands and allowing US led democracies to flourish. Those reasons alone make it s vitally important contribution.

Germany being allowed to concentrate its resources makes more than a delay possible. Depends how far back you go with your counter factual history. Had the UK been driven out of the war in 1940, and had the Germans all the extra resources afforded it by having access to the middle east, things would've definitely gone differently. Had their been no threat of a 2nd front in 1943, would the Germans have taken a strategic gamble on Kursk? Even in 1944, were there no signs of a second front, the Germans could have concentrated a far larger force to combat efforts to kick them out of Belarus. I mean, we are talking about big numbers here, a third of the total deployed army, half the entire airforce. Enough to turn a tide.

[dirty dingus]

15 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Noone has contacted my dad, and he's 78 and has a strange blood cancer. I think it's an accidental oversight. Might be worthwhile contacting your gp for clarification. Worst case scenario and your lassie isn't able to drop of messages for whatever reason, you'll have the option of the food box / deliveries on the bench as it were just in case. 

There has been loads of folk overlooked, My old man only got his shielding letter on Saturday after countless phone calls to Heomotology and his GP.  Fair play to the council though, they dropped of a food package yesterday which has an impressive amount of goodies.