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The Nick of this Division


Is this the worst second tier in the history of Scottish football?  

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9 minutes ago, stumigoo said:

Ally Maxwell

Jamie McQuilken
Brian Welsh
Rab Shannon
Christian Dailly
Steven Pressley
Andy McLaren
Dave Bowman
Gary McSwegan
Robbie Winters
Craig Brewster

Subs -
Ray McKinnon
Grant Johnson
Owen Coyle

That’s the team vs Partick in the 95/96 playoff final. The first season I started going to games. There are 9 or 10 names from that squad who were outstanding. Not necessarily saying in comparison to the current crop but it is a ridiculously strong side.

Yet you still needed the referee's help to win.

Edited by Cerberus
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something that's sort of linked I guess, and I'd quite like to see (albeit it would I'd hazard a guess be an unworkable nightmare along with making budgeting extremely difficult) is some sort of system where you pay based on the result your team has managed to pick up at the end of the game, say £15 if the team lose, £20 if they draw and then £30 if they win. idk how on earth you could get that effect with season tickets realistically, though. Plus when you pay you're paying to watch the game, not the end result - but a quirk of it all is that the end result is arguably what you're paying to watch; the full time whistle going on a win is pretty much what it's all about imo.

You can sort of get that effect anyway through judicious placing of bets with a bookies, but then you're at the mercy of the odds that you can get + being old enough to gamble.

I wouldn't mind paying a premium to watch a Thistle side that's winning Scottish Championship level games, but having had a season ticket for last year + this season (today as an aside was a complete nope for going to Firhill to watch us against Alloa; didn't finish work til about 7pm, shite weather, shite teams, just straight up couldn't be fucked despite having already paid it in advance) the sheer drudgery of this league is wearing on me to the extent that I'm finding it harder and harder to justify getting a ST each year. Season tickets just feel a bit like they're not really fit for purpose in terms of value for money vs. the risk taken from fans to end up paying in advance for a team that are just flat out not enjoyable to watch - could remedy that through trying to add a few more neat, low cost extra's for everyone stumping up rather than fancy pricing structures. It could well be a very different story and I'd be saying something else if we were in a playoff spot, but I'm not so sure.

I like those weird Scandinavian structure's I've heard about that are on some kind of a Netflix model, but I don't really know an awful lot about them (sounding a bit like Darren Mackie there, ha) so would rather sound the horn of HibeeJibee about whether they'd be an option.

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11 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

On paper, I reckon our current side would beat our 2014 Championship winning side:

Kyle Letheren

Gary Irvine - Iain Davidson - Declan Gallagher - Willie Dyer

Nicky Riley - Gavin Rae - Kevin McBride - Jim McAlister

 Peter MacDonald - Carlo Monti/Craig Beattie/Christian Nade

Vs

Jack Hamilton

Cammy Kerr - Jordon Forster - Jordan McGhee - Jordan Marshall

Declan McDaid - Paul McGowan/Finlay Robertson/Jamie Ness/Shaun Byrne - Graham Dorrans - Andrew Nelson

  Kane Hemmings - Danny Johnson

Not that that adds a whole lot to the debate.
 

See, I'm fairly certain our title winning side would beat our current side (both sides based on number of appearances)...

Clark

Ralston - Duffy - Kerr - Tanser

Wright - Davidson - McCann - O'Halloran

Kennedy

May

v

Holmes - Milne

Sheerin - Hardie - Morris - Millar

Craig - McCaffrey - Rutkiewicz - Irvine

Main

...

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Ally Maxwell

Jamie McQuilken
Brian Welsh
Rab Shannon
Christian Dailly
Steven Pressley
Andy McLaren
Dave Bowman
Gary McSwegan
Robbie Winters
Craig Brewster

Subs -
Ray McKinnon
Grant Johnson
Owen Coyle

That’s the team vs Partick in the 95/96 playoff final. The first season I started going to games. There are 9 or 10 names from that squad who were outstanding. Not necessarily saying in comparison to the current crop but it is a ridiculously strong side.
And you came second that season. Get it RIGGGGHHHHHHTTTTT fucking up ye
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21 hours ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

something that's sort of linked I guess, and I'd quite like to see (albeit it would I'd hazard a guess be an unworkable nightmare along with making budgeting extremely difficult) is some sort of system where you pay based on the result your team has managed to pick up at the end of the game, say £15 if the team lose, £20 if they draw and then £30 if they win.

This is wonderfully mental.

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The league is very poor. Dundee United who are spending fortunes would not survive in the Premiership with that team. I can’t imagine either that any team in the play offs would beat, Hamilton,Hearts St Mirren or St Johnstone to go up. It was not long ago that Rangers,Hearts and Hibs were in the division to now be replaced by Alloa,Ayr and Arbroath. It is what it is though and no team can go out expecting to win.

 

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I don't think this is an issue specific to the Championship. If you look at the teams in recent years who have won the Championship they stay up in the Premiership (admittedly this is skewed by Rangers, Hearts and Hibs being some of those teams). Equally, teams that come down struggle to bounce back up. If the Championship had suffered more of a decline than other leagues then you'd expect teams who get promoted to struggle with the step up, and teams who get relegated into the league to bounce back up.

I think what's happened is that across all levels (minus the old firm) the gap in ability has narrowed. The gap between 3rd in the Premiership and bottom of League Two (and beyond that to some Highland/Lowland league teams) is as small as it's ever been. In effect most teams have been dragged towards the 'centre', fans of Premiership and Championship clubs will see this as standards declining, whereas fans of League 1 and League 2 clubs probably see it as standards improving slightly.

Don't know exactly why this has happened but there have been a few good suggestions. I'd guess firstly that increasing professionalism at part-time clubs is closing the gap. Obviously professional clubs have got more professional too, but that brings diminishing returns once you reach a certain level of conditioning and fitness. You can't continue to keep your fitness advantage by continuing to get fitter indefinitely. If part-time players are willing to put the work in to get to an optimum fitness level then the benefit of being full-time (in that one aspect at least) is negated. At some lower league clubs there is more money which obviously narrows the gap slightly. And lastly I think shorter contracts and the ability of bigger clubs to immediately poach a player showing the slightest signs of talent has levelled the playing field in the lower leagues. It is almost impossible to build a team now as a bigger side will come and take any half decent players, this means clubs are constantly in a building phase and having to take risks on new players, a lot of which will be rubbish. While this is going on, teams like Arbroath, or Dumbarton a few years ago, are building a solid, organised side and can take advantage while traditionally bigger clubs get pushed down the league.

I don't think it's a bad thing that the playing field is levelling out a bit, but then as a fan of a club desperately trying to get up the league I would say that...

 

Edited by Diamonds are Forever
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We would have beaten that Berwick Rangers team about 15-0 last season FWIW.
And thanks to the trapdoor they've been flirting with the drop zone in the Lowland League. Replacing guff like Berwick and East Stirling with City and Cove has helped narrow the gap between the Championship and League Two. It's only going to decrease further as the pyramid continues to take shape and more movement occurs between leagues.
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And thanks to the trapdoor they've been flirting with the drop zone in the Lowland League. Replacing guff like Berwick and East Stirling with City and Cove has helped narrow the gap between the Championship and League Two. It's only going to decrease further as the pyramid continues to take shape and more movement occurs between leagues.


Yep, and the likes of Brora, Buckie and East Kilbride are unfortunate not to be in League 2 due to the stupid rule that the bottom side doesn’t get automatically relegated.

East Stirling and Berwick being relegated was good for Scottish football, being replaced with more ambitious sides that weren’t just surviving in League Two. The likes of Albion Rovers, Brechin and the Mutant Alliance (Elgin and Cowdenbeath) will be flushed away next. Can’t see Brora or Kelty/Bonnyrigg losing to Brechin or Albion Rovers to be honest.
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Yep, and the likes of Brora, Buckie and East Kilbride are unfortunate not to be in League 2 due to the stupid rule that the bottom side doesn’t get automatically relegated.

East Stirling and Berwick being relegated was good for Scottish football, being replaced with more ambitious sides that weren’t just surviving in League Two. The likes of Albion Rovers, Brechin and the Mutant Alliance (Elgin and Cowdenbeath) will be flushed away next. Can’t see Brora or Kelty/Bonnyrigg losing to Brechin or Albion Rovers to be honest.

Is it not the case that some teams don’t want to get promoted into the league system (I’m not sure of the rationale- but I would imagine it was because of increased levels of compliance etc)
Was sure I’d seen something about East Kilbride fielding weakened teams in the play off matches.
I’m pretty sure teams like Brora, BSC, East Kilbride etc will be paying comparable wages to Albion Rovers, East Stirling and co.
It’s probably less embarrassing to lose to those sort of teams than some of the dross in League 2 or even 1
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Is it not the case that some teams don’t want to get promoted into the league system (I’m not sure of the rationale- but I would imagine it was because of increased levels of compliance etc)
Was sure I’d seen something about East Kilbride fielding weakened teams in the play off matches.
I’m pretty sure teams like Brora, BSC, East Kilbride etc will be paying comparable wages to Albion Rovers, East Stirling and co.
It’s probably less embarrassing to lose to those sort of teams than some of the dross in League 2 or even 1


East Kilbride definitely want to go up, they just haven’t. Brora definitely didn’t a few years back but not sure about now. No idea about Buckie.
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Ally Maxwell

Jamie McQuilken
Brian Welsh
Rab Shannon
Christian Dailly
Steven Pressley
Andy McLaren
Dave Bowman
Gary McSwegan
Robbie Winters
Craig Brewster

Subs -
Ray McKinnon
Grant Johnson
Owen Coyle

That’s the team vs Partick in the 95/96 playoff final. The first season I started going to games. There are 9 or 10 names from that squad who were outstanding. Not necessarily saying in comparison to the current crop but it is a ridiculously strong side.
Still couldn't win the league that year!!!
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13 hours ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 


East Kilbride definitely want to go up, they just haven’t. Brora definitely didn’t a few years back but not sure about now. No idea about Buckie.

 

Buckie would probably want to go up, just so they can have their four annual derbies with Elgin.

Brechin are really not going to enjoy the Highland League.

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Just now, 1320Lichtie said:

 


Don't think they'd manage to carry on too long if they got relegated

 

People said the same about the 'Shire, and it took a couple of years but they're settled now. Hopefully they'll put the Top Tayside Junior sides at Tier 6 (highland) so that one or two could try their luck in the HL and give Brechin some closer games.

Tbf to Brechin, they're the smallest side by catchment area in the SPFL with a catchment area of about 8,000, so they are where they should be.

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People said the same about the 'Shire, and it took a couple of years but they're settled now. Hopefully they'll put the Top Tayside Junior sides at Tier 6 (highland) so that one or two could try their luck in the HL and give Brechin some closer games.

Tbf to Brechin, they're the smallest side by catchment area in the SPFL with a catchment area of about 8,000, so they are where they should be.


I know but it's not really too similar is it?

Shire have loads of local games now and can compete for the better lowland league players. A lot of good sized junior clubs are kicking about there too it's probably quite refreshing for them to be honest.

Brechin would struggle to attract anyone of a decent standard for the Highland League and are miles away from everyone else, closest game would be Inverurie? They'd really struggle to win it or compete against the top teams in the league too. They're already skint and interest would plummet

Maybe not though but it's what I've been told by someone who works closely with someone involved

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