The Nick of this Division

[1320Lichtie]

Having seen plenty of League 1 and some League 2 it's still a huge step up from them, the bottom of League 2 is terrible. Top of League 2 and bottom half of League 1 is alright. Top teams in League 1 are decent and I'd imagine they'd compete pretty well in this league.

It's all relative

Cup results can be unpredictable

Would say Talbot and Brora are probably more like L2 level teams too

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

I would definitely say the part-time teams have become more professional and organised too. Since we came back down, we’ve faced 4 part-time sides, Dumbarton were fairly decent, Brechin aids, Alloa very hard to beat and a c**t of a team to play, and Arbroath who have looked very good.

[1320Lichtie]

I would definitely say the part-time teams have become more professional and organised too. Since we came back down, we’ve faced 4 part-time sides, Dumbarton were fairly decent, Brechin aids, Alloa very hard to beat and a c**t of a team to play, and Arbroath who have looked very good.

I would say football on the whole, everyone seems to be fitter and more professional than they were say 20 year ago. Players look after themselves a lot more. Maybe that's levelled it a bit

There has been some absolutely rotten stuff this season which we've played a part in, we've been awful in a few games but the same kind of games happen at every level

[Ray Patterson]

4 hours ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Out of interest, does anybody think a league restructuring* would increase the quality of teams around this level?

*I’m aware this is a shit black hole, and I don’t want to go too deep into it

I'm a big advocate for making the second tier 14 clubs (39 game season), this would be to ensure that all full-time clubs are more likely to stay in the division and it may give sides such as Morton, Raith etc more security in remaining a full-time side, and it could allow the likes of Alloa and possibly Cove in future to become Full-Time.

It also would provide the SPFL with four extra clubs, which could really add to the leagues. Inverurie, Buckie, Bonnyrigg and Kelty for example.

[Derry Alli]

5 hours ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Out of interest, does anybody think a league restructuring* would increase the quality of teams around this level?

No. Refusing to sign and pay boys about £600 a week when they can't trap a fucking football and instead trying to bring through players who aren't complete charlatans might though. 

That would basically require a complete rethink on coaching - from top to bottom - in Scotland and as such, will never happen. 

[Frankie S]

Can’t disagree with the OP. The standard on display for the last few seasons in the Championship has been truly lamentable. The fact that we’re still in it is testament to that.

Queens’ strategy now seems to be to cobble together a skeleton squad of bargain basement jobbers on short term deals at the start of each season, barely being able to fill a bench during the Betfred Cup, in the blind hope that progression to the next stage will allow us to strengthen for the league campaign.

But, to the surprise of exactly no-one, the fact that we have a first XI of bargain basement jobbers and a (not quite full) bench of callow kids, who the manager won’t play anyway as they’re not up to it, invariably ensures we don’t qualify from the group stages, meaning the manager has no option but to fill the remaining squad places with the dregs that no-one else wants and hope for the best in the league, keeping fingers crossed for a money-spinning Scottish Cup run (that won’t materialise because the team and bench are full of jobbers) to allow us to strengthen in January.

So, in Jan we get in a mixed bag of loanees to save us from relegation: maybe one half decent prospect, and a few nonentities and never-will-bes, and we just about hold on to our Championship status by the skin of our teeth. 

And the following season we do it all again.

I sometimes wonder what level of the English pyramid Queens could realistically compete in with this modus operandi. Then I stop wondering because it would more than likely be a league with the word ‘North’ appended to it.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Frankie S

[Ludo*1]

On paper, I reckon our current side would beat our 2014 Championship winning side:

Kyle Letheren

Gary Irvine - Iain Davidson - Declan Gallagher - Willie Dyer

Nicky Riley - Gavin Rae - Kevin McBride - Jim McAlister

 Peter MacDonald - Carlo Monti/Craig Beattie/Christian Nade

Vs

Jack Hamilton

Cammy Kerr - Jordon Forster - Jordan McGhee - Jordan Marshall

Declan McDaid - Paul McGowan/Finlay Robertson/Jamie Ness/Shaun Byrne - Graham Dorrans - Andrew Nelson

  Kane Hemmings - Danny Johnson

Not that that adds a whole lot to the debate.
 

[AyrTroopMajor]

Think this one is hard to answer as an Ayr fan given that our team this season and last season are significantly better than anything that we have managed to field at this level since the days of Gordon Dalziel and Bill Barr. 

I am certainly used to being played off the park at this level but was never clear whether that was down the the high standard of opposition that we were facing or whether we were just, yet again, absolutely rancid relegation-fodder. I think we are a bit of an anomaly here. We are better than we have been before, and everyone else is probably worse.

[Gordon EF]

Comparing the 2nd tier to the 1990s / early 2000s, I suppose an obvious factor is the Premiership increasing from 10 to 12.

Is the lower end of full time football experiencing a bit of a squeeze from two sides. I think part time football has improved a lot over the past 15/20 years. It's fairly noticable when you see extended highlights of games and compare them to games now. In the lower leagues, players have got much fitter and the pace of the game's increased a fair bit. That's almost certainly why more Championship clubs are losing cup games and th ebest PT clubs are finding it easier to stay in the Championship once they get there.

Has the number of foreign players in the Premiership decresed from then? I seem to remember clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee, Motherwell being filled with new batches of foreign players every year in the late 90s. If Premiership clubs are cutting back on that then it probably makes it more likely that Scottish players who might have been pushed down to the second tier in previous seasons are sticking in the top league.

[Pull My Strings]

2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

On paper, I reckon our current side would beat our 2014 Championship winning side:

Kyle Letheren

Gary Irvine - Iain Davidson - Declan Gallagher - Willie Dyer

Nicky Riley - Gavin Rae - Kevin McBride - Jim McAlister

 Peter MacDonald - Carlo Monti/Craig Beattie/Christian Nade

Vs

Jack Hamilton

Cammy Kerr - Jordon Forster - Jordan McGhee - Jordan Marshall

Declan McDaid - Paul McGowan/Finlay Robertson/Jamie Ness/Shaun Byrne - Graham Dorrans - Andrew Nelson

  Kane Hemmings - Danny Johnson

Not that that adds a whole lot to the debate.
 

I suppose it illustrates how shite the division was in 2014.

[Ludo*1]

7 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

I suppose it illustrates how shite the division was in 2014.

Yep, the fact we had Bomber for half the season illustrates that this year isn't the worst from a Dundee perspective. Hartley, before leading us to the title, suggested that Falkirk had the best squad in the division that year in his brief stint unemployed would you say their list of players were significantly worse/better than United's this season?

https://www.worldfootball.net/teams/falkirk-fc/2014/2/

[ICTChris]

Here's our two title winning teams in this division, first 2004

Mark Brown------------

Ross Tokely--Bobby Mann--Stuart McCaffrey--Stuart Golabek

---Richie Hart/Liam Keogh--Russell Duncan--Roy Mcbain----

----Barry Wilson---Paul Ritchie/Steve Hislop---David Bingham--

 

And 2010

Ryan Esson

David Proctor--Ross Tokely--Grant Munro--Stuart Golabek--

---------Russell Duncan---Lee Cox------------------------------

---Jonny Hayes----Dani Sanchez/Eric Odhiambho--Richie Foran--

-------------------Adam Rooney------------------------------------

 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

Comparing the 2nd tier to the 1990s / early 2000s, I suppose an obvious factor is the Premiership increasing from 10 to 12.

Is the lower end of full time football experiencing a bit of a squeeze from two sides. I think part time football has improved a lot over the past 15/20 years. It's fairly noticable when you see extended highlights of games and compare them to games now. In the lower leagues, players have got much fitter and the pace of the game's increased a fair bit. That's almost certainly why more Championship clubs are losing cup games and th ebest PT clubs are finding it easier to stay in the Championship once they get there.

Has the number of foreign players in the Premiership decresed from then? I seem to remember clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee, Motherwell being filled with new batches of foreign players every year in the late 90s. If Premiership clubs are cutting back on that then it probably makes it more likely that Scottish players who might have been pushed down to the second tier in previous seasons are sticking in the top league.

I think there's probably a fair bit of merit in your foreign / English players point. Both Celtic and Rangers have a lot more domestic players now, middle order sides have less foreigners and there are therefore probably a lower standard of Scot floating down a level.

I'm not convinced your "Part time teams are finding it easier to stay in the Championship" point has an awful lot of merit though. Are they finding it easier? Arbroath have had a great start but they are 7 points off the playoff spot (granted that's another part time team) and 9 points off the bottom. If Thistle get their act together with a new Board and presumably new funds after Xmas then Arbroath still have much to do to ensure safety. Alloa stayed up last season but did so by a point as we imploded and the worst Falkirk car crash in living memory came up a point short.  17/18 the two part time teams were relegated. 16/17 part time Ayr went down and Dumbarton stayed up on goal difference from the Gary Locke / John Hughes Raith debacle (who knows what might have happened if they'd played an actual goalkeeper in goal every game!). 15/16 Alloa went down, Dumbarton stayed up thanks to Livi being a car crash. They finished 8th but did so by 6 pts granted. They also stayed up the year before but there were three part time sides that season + Livi had a points deduction.

2013/14 did see Dumbarton finish 5th which was a terrific achievement. There were 3 part time teams that season plus Morton were in complete car crash mode and finished bottom but it was still a terrific effort. Indeed they only missed the playoffs 2 weeks from the end of the season when we edged them out. In 12/13 Dumbarton and Cowdenbeath both stayed up but Airdrie had all but gone bust and Dunfermline had a 15 pt deduction. 11/12 the only part time team Ayr were relegated. 10/11 the part time sides Cowdenbeath and Stirling Albion were relegated. Etc, etc.

Dumbarton managed to stay up for 4 years, bucking a trend but helped by full time sides going bust and having other part time sides in the division. Alloa have twice managed to stay up but only did so by a hair's breadth on the last day both times. Arbroath are doing well so far but we're not even at the halfway point yet. I don't think there's any real evidence that part time sides are truly competitive at this level over a season, but there probably is a narrowing of the gap.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Skyline Drifter

[Dundee Hibernian]

13 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I don't think we really were comparing it to the 90's though, more than last decade or two and the Premiership numbers haven't changed in that time.

Agree with much of what you type, but the OP asked if this year's second tier was the worst since the 70's, and titled his post "Is this the worst second tier in the history of Scottish football? "

[Skyline Drifter]

9 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Agree with much of what you type, but the OP asked if this year's second tier was the worst since the 70's, and titled his post "Is this the worst second tier in the history of Scottish football? "

Fair enough. My error. His later posts were much more up to date in analysis.  Will edit my previous post

[101]

How many players in the championship in the 90's and 00's would have agents? I doubt that many would. I think this is reducing the money the clubs have to spend on wages and the same players are just moving from club to club to club.

[HoBNob]

On 25/11/2019 at 17:43, Skyline Drifter said:

If we go back to the days before the Rangers / Hearts / Hibs seasons, champions were better. The St Johnstone, Hamilton, Dundee, Inverness, Falkirk, Dunfermline, Partick Thistle sides that won promotion were better than any of the recent sides to do so since Hibs.

Disagree, the League was an absolutely dreadful standard when we won the league, there's a strong argument that it would be the worst quality ever. 

 

However go up a few posts and that Dundee side was shite, etc, etc. The Partick side had a good few players but it had some amount of dross, as for the rest of the division? Oaft. 

 

The division this year is stronger than last year. 

[Gordon EF]

6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I think there's probably a fair bit of merit in your foreign / English players point. Both Celtic and Rangers have a lot more domestic players now, middle order sides have less foreigners and there are therefore probably a lower standard of Scot floating down a level.

I'm not convinced your "Part time teams are finding it easier to stay in the Championship" point has an awful lot of merit though. Are they finding it easier? Arbroath have had a great start but they are 7 points off the playoff spot (granted that's another part time team) and 9 points off the bottom. If Thistle get their act together with a new Board and presumably new funds after Xmas then Arbroath still have much to do to ensure safety. Alloa stayed up last season but did so by a point as we imploded and the worst Falkirk car crash in living memory came up a point short.  17/18 the two part time teams were relegated. 16/17 part time Ayr went down and Dumbarton stayed up on goal difference from the Gary Locke / John Hughes Raith debacle (who knows what might have happened if they'd played an actual goalkeeper in goal every game!). 15/16 Alloa went down, Dumbarton stayed up thanks to Livi being a car crash. They finished 8th but did so by 6 pts granted. They also stayed up the year before but there were three part time sides that season + Livi had a points deduction.

2013/14 did see Dumbarton finish 5th which was a terrific achievement. There were 3 part time teams that season plus Morton were in complete car crash mode and finished bottom but it was still a terrific effort. Indeed they only missed the playoffs 2 weeks from the end of the season when we edged them out. In 12/13 Dumbarton and Cowdenbeath both stayed up but Airdrie had all but gone bust and Dunfermline had a 15 pt deduction. 11/12 the only part time team Ayr were relegated. 10/11 the part time sides Cowdenbeath and Stirling Albion were relegated. Etc, etc.

Dumbarton managed to stay up for 4 years, bucking a trend but helped by full time sides going bust and having other part time sides in the division. Alloa have twice managed to stay up but only did so by a hair's breadth on the last day both times. Arbroath are doing well so far but we're not even at the halfway point yet. I don't think there's any real evidence that part time sides are truly competitive at this level over a season, but there probably is a narrowing of the gap.

Fair enough. That was more based on perception than any detailed analysis. I think the PT teams at the top end of L1 are generally a bit more confident of going up and having a chance of staying up than they were a few years ago. Although I think Dumbarton managing to stay in the league by hook or by crook for a few years is largely responsible for that.

[Worktheshaft]

6 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Here's our two title winning teams in this division, first 2004

Mark Brown------------

Ross Tokely--Bobby Mann--Stuart McCaffrey--Stuart Golabek

---Richie Hart/Liam Keogh--Russell Duncan--Roy Mcbain----

----Barry Wilson---Paul Ritchie/Steve Hislop---David Bingham--

 

And 2010

Ryan Esson

David Proctor--Ross Tokely--Grant Munro--Stuart Golabek--

---------Russell Duncan---Lee Cox------------------------------

---Jonny Hayes----Dani Sanchez/Eric Odhiambho--Richie Foran--

-------------------Adam Rooney------------------------------------

 

I reckon both those teams would win the division this season.

 

 

[stumigoo]

Ally Maxwell

Jamie McQuilken
Brian Welsh
Rab Shannon
Christian Dailly
Steven Pressley
Andy McLaren
Dave Bowman
Gary McSwegan
Robbie Winters
Craig Brewster

Subs -
Ray McKinnon
Grant Johnson
Owen Coyle

That’s the team vs Partick in the 95/96 playoff final. The first season I started going to games. There are 9 or 10 names from that squad who were outstanding. Not necessarily saying in comparison to the current crop but it is a ridiculously strong side.