The Nick of this Division

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Arbroath and Alloa have dragged everyone down. Relegate them now.

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

^^^ 2 years ago

Same as it ever was.

NB I agree with [mention=62309]ScottishZizou[/mention] that the part time and non league teams have probably got relatively better. Teams like my own and the other FT teams  in this league are definitely weaker than we should be. I can remember SFO before P&B when Thistle won the league in 2001-02 with 60-odd points and it being declared the worst First Division ever... yet Thistle fans online would now apparently kill for players from that team in today's squad 

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.

 

What is it about cricket fans being smart as f**k?

[D'Jaffo]

I don’t think it’s anything new to say that this division is pretty shite ability wise but brilliant entertainment and entirely unpredictable. There’s a part of me that loves that tbh, although the endless hoof ball that most teams employ does get boring quickly.

 

I think it helps that we’ve been generally easy on the eye for parts of the last season and a bit in this league (although we have been shite at times) so maybe if we were toiling down the bottom and putting in shite performances week in week out I’d be complaining more.

 

I don’t think it’s an issue that you’ll only find in our league though. It’s an issue that encompasses all of Scottish football. A few Championship sides were beaten yesterday but I wouldn’t say that the Seaside Leagues have got an abundance of quality in them.

 

[Ray Patterson]

5 hours ago, Fuctifano said:

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.

This.

I don't think anyone in this thread (me included) has gone and watched a full 90 minute replay from the "glory period" of the First Division.

Part of the reason the second tier may be declining, is of course down to the increased professionalism of part-time sides, the increasing ability of non-league sides and finally the anomaly of having Rangers, Hibs, Hearts in the division.

I could point to many seasons for instance 2010-11, 11-12 etc. where the First Division was just a turgid as it is now. However, I would point out that the Scottish Championship is probably in the top 10 second tiers in Europe.

In terms of crowds, only Germany, England, France,  Spain, Italy have consistently higher attendances. Russia and the Netherlands have similar crowds.

 

[jagfox]

Looking at the league there has been a lot of managerial changes throughout almost every team in the league. Are Dick Cambell and wee Robbo the only managers who have been in situ beyond the last season and a half?

Arbroath are performing above expectations.

ICT are probably around where expected being in the play-offs.

Ayr had a team built up by McCall and still have the same squad and are doing well overall.

United have appointed a steady if unspectacular manager in Neilson. They have pulled a rabbit out the hat in bringing in Shankland. I've not been impressed overall by them in the games I've seen but they've been able to be the most consistent team despite a few bloody noses along the road so far.

Recruitment has been questionable elsewhere.

Dundee seem to have a very inexperienced manager in charge and their recruitment has been ropey. They don't look like going up.

Thistle have been in a funk since finishing top 6 with boardroom uncertainty. Even now people are worried about who is influencing decisions at the club in the time being.

The previous board did well to get McCall on board. We're still bottom but have closed the gap since Caldwell got punted. With regards to the cup game I had the fear on seeing our line-up. 

Pars, Morton and QoS seem to have struggled with poorly performing managers, drop in budgets and this has led to inconsistent performances and results.

Alloa have had a new manager and a change of personnel. They don't seem to have the loan players that augmented their team last season.

The standard of the second tier rises and dips and I'd say we're certainly close to a nadir at the moment but that can change relatively quickly.

There's probably less money kicking about overall apart from United, Dundee and too a degree Thistle. The part-time teams are probably doing okay as there is a steep rise in income from the seaside leagues.

[Alibi]

The standard is pretty poor.  At our level, the money just isn't there to attract decent players.  We currently have a few excellent players (Lewis Strapp & Reece Lyon two who have come through the youth system) but we certainly don't have a terribly good squad overall, and our goalkeepers are outstanding in their general shiteness (Rogers may be competent but he's no Derek Gaston; Ramsbottom is comedy gold).  I imagine the situation is the same at the majority of tier 2 clubs.  It's just not good to watch.  No wonder fans are staying away.

[invergowrie arab]

Its dogshit compared to the first time we came down 95/96

United , Dunfermline, Morton, St Johnstone and Dundee all had decent sides.

Teams all had international players, or soon to be international players. 4 teams had 5 figure crowds that season too.

[Ray Patterson]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

Its dogshit compared to the first time we came down 95/96

United , Dunfermline, Morton, St Johnstone and Dundee all had decent sides.

Teams all had international players, or soon to be international players. 4 teams had 5 figure crowds that season too.

Teams were also running at £2m a season losses. That's before my time so I can't really vouch for how good the league was then, but the OP was suggesting that this season was the worst ever, which is quite frankly bull.

Also worth noting there was only 10 teams in the Premier Division back then, so of course the quality of the second tier would be better.

[vikingTON]

10 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

I could point to many seasons for instance 2010-11, 11-12 etc. where the First Division was just a turgid as it is now. 

I'd be interested to see you substantiate that claim, given that your club wasn't actually playing in the division and there was no detailed coverage of the matches either. Morton ended those campaigns with stinking 7th and 8th place finishes under Allan Moore, yet those squads were simply far more talented and effective as a football team on any given week than the dung that somehow finished in the top half of the second tier in May 2019. There are have been plenty of First Division campaigns that were forgettable but none have been as diabolical in terms of the quality and standard of play as the garbage being served up right now. That isn't nostalgia for some mythical good old days but rather observation of an objective decline in quality across the board and particularly among midtable teams.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Teams were also running at £2m a season losses. That's before my time so I can't really vouch for how good the league was then, but the OP was suggesting that this season was the worst ever, which is quite frankly bull.

Teams really were not 'running at £2m a season losses' as a general rule in the second tier, not in the 1990s and not ever. But there's also no sign that financial profligacy has disappeared in recent times either: Inverness ran up an £800k loss in the last campaign; Dundee United recorded a seven figure loss for yet another floundering failure; Dunfermline IIRC lost £200k and Raith lost £400k trying and failing to get into the division. 

Clubs are simply getting far less quality for their money than before. 

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

We won the league in 2010 and it was definitely better than it was now. We were lining up with guys like Hayes, Rooney and Foran.

Even if you just look back at that battle Partick and Morton had around 2014 or whenever it was, their teams were better than most you’d see now.

[Poet of the Macabre]

Absolutely. The standard of Scottish football in general has been absolutely abysmal for years.

You support your club out of blind loyalty a lot of the time but I've rarely went so long without a Pars game and can't say I miss it too much tbh. Paying £20+ to watch terrible games of football in the freezing cold is not a badge of honour, it's just insanity.

 

[DAFC.]

I must say, this season and last is the most gaps I've had between going to Pars games. I went to 95% of home games during the absolutely diabolical 14-15 season too. 

It is absolutely pish and the teams in the top 4 are rather bad. From 5-10 they are all absolutely shite and all have an equal chance of being relegated/finishing in the play-offs. It really is terrible. 

[Poet of the Macabre]

12 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

I must say, this season and last is the most gaps I've had between going to Pars games. I went to 95% of home games during the absolutely diabolical 14-15 season too. 

It is absolutely pish and the teams in the top 4 are rather bad. From 5-10 they are all absolutely shite and all have an equal chance of being relegated/finishing in the play-offs. It really is terrible. 

Just looked and I think my last game was mid-September when we lost to Inverness. Really doubt I've ever gone two months without a Pars game during the season before and even though I genuinely was unable to make a few of the games since, I missed others by choice.

This season I enjoyed the first half against Dundee and the Parkhead LC tie. That's it.

Anyone going to Dens Park in December and paying £24 should be locked up for their own safety.

[Skyline Drifter]

On 25/11/2019 at 15:57, virginton said:

I'd be interested to see you substantiate that claim, given that your club wasn't actually playing in the division and there was no detailed coverage of the matches either. Morton ended those campaigns with stinking 7th and 8th place finishes under Allan Moore, yet those squads were simply far more talented and effective as a football team on any given week than the dung that somehow finished in the top half of the second tier in May 2019. There are have been plenty of First Division campaigns that were forgettable but none have been as diabolical in terms of the quality and standard of play as the garbage being served up right now. That isn't nostalgia for some mythical good old days but rather observation of an objective decline in quality across the board and particularly among midtable teams.

I think it's always difficult to make any sort of definitive conclusion in these sort of things. Even in the last 10 - 15 years, advances in sports science and changes in tactics may mean that teams simply negate each other more than they used to, rather than particularly that the standard of football is worse.

In general though I agree with the sentiment. We've had one season out of this division since 2002 so are probably as well placed to talk about it over recent times than most. Ironically that one season probably coincided with us having one of the best squads in that time and playing perhaps the best football outwith the Scottish Cup Final team. I do think the last couple of seasons have been as poor as the second tier has ever been. It's pretty dull stuff most of the time. The present Dundee United team are pretty bang average apart from Shankland and yet they look like they will run away with it. Nobody else has any consistency at all. County last year were similar. They were decent and largely consistent (if we ignore them being lucky to only lose 4-0 at Palmerston in January) but they weren't especially exciting or good.

If we go back to the days before the Rangers / Hearts / Hibs seasons, champions were better. The St Johnstone, Hamilton, Dundee, Inverness, Falkirk, Dunfermline, Partick Thistle sides that won promotion were better than any of the recent sides to do so since Hibs.

Whether it is a cyclical anomally or a longer term trend remains to be seen but I do think the football at this level is worse in the last couple of years than at any other time in the last two decades.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Skyline Drifter

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Out of interest, does anybody think a league restructuring* would increase the quality of teams around this level?

*I’m aware this is a shit black hole, and I don’t want to go too deep into it

[Skyline Drifter]

6 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Out of interest, does anybody think a league restructuring* would increase the quality of teams around this level?

*I’m aware this is a shit black hole, and I don’t want to go too deep into it

Not particularly.

We are where we are. For whatever reason the quality across the sides ranked 13th to 22nd in Scotland is pretty low at the moment. It's still going to be no matter how you structure the Leagues. If you drop the Premiership to 10 teams and move teams 11 and 12 to this level it's not going to make an awful lot of odds most likely. If you leave the Premier as is but make a bigger 2nd tier it's just going to bring in poorer sides (cup results notwithstanding). If you expand the Premier to say 20 teams then clearly "this level" will be bottom half of the top division. You'll see some better players but also probably some massacres and I doubt it would help the game overall much. The new 2nd tier would then be what is now 3rd tier.

The players are of the standard they are. They ain't gonna be any better for a restructure of the League. Unless we bring in better foreign players but that's not something beneficial to the game in the longer term.

As I said above, I do think the overall standard at this level is a lot poorer than it was a decade or so ago. I'm not sure it means an awful lot though and isn't just a normal cyclical lull.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Skyline Drifter

[Tannadeechee]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Teams really were not 'running at £2m a season losses' as a general rule in the second tier, not in the 1990s and not ever. But there's also no sign that financial profligacy has disappeared in recent times either: Inverness ran up an £800k loss in the last campaign; Dundee United recorded a seven figure loss for yet another floundering failure; Dunfermline IIRC lost £200k and Raith lost £400k trying and failing to get into the division. 

Clubs are simply getting far less quality for their money than before. 

Clubs back them were spending far more money than they were then. United for instance spent transfer fees of £250000, £350000 and £750000 amongst others in the 2nd.teir in 1995/96. Inconceivable now. They weren't the only ones spending 6 figure transfer fees.

Also worth pointing out (yet again!) United's loss isn't just the playing staff it has been infrastructure and repairs as well.

Player's wages as well have gone through the roof by comparison, especially elsewhere, and we cannot compete, made worse when the money from broadcasting is horrendous compared to previously with regards to wages and elsewhere where we struggle to compete 

And nostalgia to a lesser extent

[Lord Snooty]

2 hours ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Absolutely. The standard of Scottish football in general has been absolutely abysmal for years.

You support your club out of blind loyalty a lot of the time but I've rarely went so long without a Pars game and can't say I miss it too much tbh. Paying £20+ to watch terrible games of football in the freezing cold is not a badge of honour, it's just insanity.

 

Ah.. a convert. I just watch the goals on the BBC highlights or club websites. Fvck watching the pish that's served up in-between.

[Dundee Hibernian]

Don't think it is the worst standard since reconstruction from the two leagues after 74-75, but it's very, very close.

In the first few seasons from around 75-75, the football was dreadful down the leagues, including the second tier, but at least it was cheap to get in. Now I'd say the value for money in relation to quality on offer is at the lowest, which isn't the same as the actual standard alone.

I think the type of player we are watching today has changed: there are more athletes, yet less able footballers. Teams are also supposedly better organised generally these days, which can also mean over-coached. Managers/coaches also seem to have a greater fear of losing, which may be odd given the change from 2 points to 3 for a win in the mid 'nineties. 

Finally, out of step perhaps with the majority of Dundee United fans, I don't think we are very good: defensively, having just had 5 clean sheets in a row, it emphasises to me the poor standard of the other teams, as the players we have in these areas just aren't of a high quality, just as an example.