Cyprus vs Scotland - Donner Kebabs vs Haggis Suppers

[Ross.]

All things considered, winning 2-1 there is a reasonable result.

Wasn't too impressed by Ryan Jack, was definitely the poorest of the 3 in centre mid. McGinn/McGregor and 1 other is definitely the way to go though. Christie puts himself about well, wins a lot of free kicks and is good for the odd wondergoal, as per Saturday. Should definitely be starting with him wide right or behind the centre forward also.

Big worry is still the lack of a quality centre half and centre forward. We have a strong midfield and decent depth up and down the flanks when everyone is fit, but the positions mentioned there we have very little that stands out or looks like standing out any time soon.

Anything from Wednesday will do, finishing 3rd is exactly what I expected at the outset. Play offs shouldn't hold any real fears. We are probably going to be looked at as the "easy draw" by most other sides but with everyone fit we should be more than a match for the teams we could face.

[tarapoa]

5 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Wasn't too impressed by Ryan Jack, was definitely the poorest of the 3 in centre mid. McGinn/McGregor and 1 other is definitely the way to go though.

Problem with that is you risk a Kazakhstan away performance, where an already less than top drawer defence are exposed due to all the midfielders being attack-minded.  It was Macgregor, McGinn and Armstrong over there - none who can really put a tackle in.

Therefore either McTominay or The Rat need to play as a sitter.

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, tarapoa said:

Problem with that is you risk a Kazakhstan away performance, where an already less than top drawer defence are exposed due to all the midfielders being attack-minded.  It was Macgregor, McGinn and Armstrong over there - none who can really put a tackle in.

Therefore either McTominay or The Rat need to play as a sitter.

I agree entirely with what you are saying, I just didn't see Jack do that job particularly effectively against Cyprus. Granted, it was his full debut and he may simply have been a bit nervous, but he will have to improve massively if given another chance or his Scotland career will be a very short one.

[naegoodinthedark]

I agree entirely with what you are saying, I just didn't see Jack do that job particularly effectively against Cyprus. Granted, it was his full debut and he may simply have been a bit nervous, but he will have to improve massively if given another chance or his Scotland career will be a very short one.

Snakes don’t get nervous. They’re just snakes.

[Ross.]

2 minutes ago, naegoodinthedark said:

Snakes don’t get nervous. They’re just snakes.

Dunno about that. I've seen plenty of them that were absolutely rattling.

[Jacksgranda]

20 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

21 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Stuck listening to this on the radio yesterday due to work, but just caught up with the highlights.
Over the two games, would it be fair to say that we've had the edge over them, but we're not far off the same level as Cyprus these days?

All fair apart from the 'these days' bit. Every time we've played them it's been 2-1 and fairly/very tight.

I seem to remember us beating Cyprus 8-0.

2-1 must be the new 8-0.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

I seem to remember us beating Cyprus 8-0.

2-1 must be the new 8-0.

...and the bloody Germans put twelve past them four days later. What a week in May that must have been for the travelling Cypriot.

Irrelevant, but I see Argentina finished behind Peru and Bolivia in qualifying for that World Cup  

Edit: more irrelevance that I found interesting: Hungary finished top of their qualifying group, level on points with the Czechs, but ahead on goal difference, goals scored, head-to-head record, and probably cards, corners, and anything else you'd use to split the difference between sides these days. As points were the only decider, there was a neutral playoff game, which the Czechs won. No World Cup for Hungary  

Edited November 18, 2019 by BigFatTabbyDave

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

I seem to remember us beating Cyprus 8-0.

2-1 must be the new 8-0.

Don't know how I forgot that tbh!

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Edit: more irrelevance that I found interesting: Hungary finished top of their qualifying group, level on points with the Czechs, but ahead on goal difference, goals scored, head-to-head record, and probably cards, corners, and anything else you'd use to split the difference between sides these days. As points were the only decider, there was a neutral playoff game, which the Czechs won. No World Cup for Hungary  

It wasn't until WC 1970 qualifying that GD applied worldwide.

Particularly infamous was WC 1954. There was a 3-team group involving Spain, Turkey and Netherlands, but the Dutch withdrew. Even though it was now effectively a 2-legged knockout tie: group rules applied. Spain pasted the Turks 4-1 in 1st leg but somehow they contrived to lose return leg 1-0. Despite having "won" 4-2 on aggregate there was a playoff in Rome which finished 2-2 aet. This resulted in the groundsman's son drawing lots... he drew Turkey. They had actually already made the finals draw so Turkey became seeded as they acquired Spain's slot. (Incidentally this was an unusual WC since despite having 4 groups of 4 only the 2 seeds played the 2 non-seeds in each group i.e. no 3rd game, then all 4 group winners played 1 half of knockout draw/all 4 runners-up the other half).


Intercontinental Cup consciously only used points until late 1960s which led to 3 instances where a playoff should not have been needed:

1961
Benfica 1-0 Penarol
Penarol 5-0 Benfica          (Penarol should have won 5-1 on aggregate)
PLAYOFF
(in Montevideo ) Penarol 2-1 Benfica

1963
Independiente 1-0 Inter Milan
Inter Milan 2-0 Indepentiente          (Inter should have won 2-1 on aggregate)
PLAYOFF
(in Madrid) Inter Milan 1-0 Independiente (aet)

1967
Celtic 1-0 Racing
Racing 2-1 Celtic          (Celtic should have won on away goals)
PLAYOFF
(in Montevideo) Racing 1-0 Celtic

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

Particularly infamous was WC 1954. There was a 3-team group involving Spain, Turkey and Netherlands, but the Dutch withdrew. Even though it was now effectively a 2-legged knockout tie: group rules applied. Spain pasted the Turks 4-1 in 1st leg but somehow they contrived to lose return leg 1-0. Despite having "won" 4-2 on aggregate there was a playoff in Rome which finished 2-2 aet. This resulted in the groundsman's son drawing lots... he drew Turkey. They had actually already made the finals draw so Turkey became seeded as they acquired Spain's slot. (Incidentally this was an unusual WC since despite having 4 groups of 4 only the 2 seeds played the 2 non-seeds in each group i.e. no 3rd game, then all 4 group winners played 1 half of knockout draw/all 4 runners-up the other half).

That's tremendous.

Imagine the head explosions if you tried to explain the Nations League to a Fifties football administrator.

[craigkillie]

The structure of football competitions in the old days was often quite unusual.

For example, in the early days of the Scottish Cup, if teams drew in the original match and the replay then both of them would get put through to the next round. There was also seemingly no thought given to the number of teams in each round - they'd sometimes get to the semi-finals and then realise they only had 3 clubs left, then have to give someone a bye to the final.

[HibeeJibee]

49 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The structure of football competitions in the old days was often quite unusual.

For example, in the early days of the Scottish Cup, if teams drew in the original match and the replay then both of them would get put through to the next round. There was also seemingly no thought given to the number of teams in each round - they'd sometimes get to the semi-finals and then realise they only had 3 clubs left, then have to give someone a bye to the final.

That still happen in the Balkans - I've noticed competitions like the Kosovo Cup having 14 teams in a certain round, and playing 7 ties then giving someone a bye into QFs.

I suppose it meant everyone started in the same round.

When the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup expanded from 32 clubs to 48 clubs for 1964-65 they had a Round of 48... Round of 24... Round of 12... then Atletico Madrid and Juventus got byes to SFs.


During the 1940s there as an all-Ireland tournament, the Inter-City Cup, with 6 clubs from each nation. They all played in R1 then 2 clubs who lost most narrowly were put back in for QFs!

In its 2nd season Shelbourne won on corner countback, which was a common tie-breaker in minor competitions until penalty shoot-outs were invented.


Drawing lots or toss of a coin was often the last resort. Famously hosts Italy beat Yugoslavia in SFs of Euro 68 on a toss, as did Celtic over Benfica in Last 16 of European Cup 1969-70.

During most of WWII the Scottish Cup was replaced by the Summer Cup and 60k were watching when Rangers beat Hibs on a Final toss in 1942. Of course they'd the King on their side...

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

It wasn't until WC 1970 qualifying that GD applied worldwide.

Particularly infamous was WC 1954. There was a 3-team group involving Spain, Turkey and Netherlands, but the Dutch withdrew. Even though it was now effectively a 2-legged knockout tie: group rules applied. Spain pasted the Turks 4-1 in 1st leg but somehow they contrived to lose return leg 1-0. Despite having "won" 4-2 on aggregate there was a playoff in Rome which finished 2-2 aet. This resulted in the groundsman's son drawing lots... he drew Turkey. They had actually already made the finals draw so Turkey became seeded as they acquired Spain's slot. (Incidentally this was an unusual WC since despite having 4 groups of 4 only the 2 seeds played the 2 non-seeds in each group i.e. no 3rd game, then all 4 group winners played 1 half of knockout draw/all 4 runners-up the other half).


Intercontinental Cup consciously only used points until late 1960s which led to 3 instances where a playoff should not have been needed:

1961
Benfica 1-0 Penarol
Penarol 5-0 Benfica          (Penarol should have won 5-1 on aggregate)
PLAYOFF
(in Montevideo ) Penarol 2-1 Benfica

1963
Independiente 1-0 Inter Milan
Inter Milan 2-0 Indepentiente          (Inter should have won 2-1 on aggregate)
PLAYOFF
(in Madrid) Inter Milan 1-0 Independiente (aet)

1967
Celtic 1-0 Racing
Racing 2-1 Celtic          (Celtic should have won on away goals)
PLAYOFF
(in Montevideo) Racing 1-0 Celtic

Poor old Celtic, always cheated...

[ewan14]

53 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Poor old Celtic, always cheated...

They were then , unbelievably

[HibeeJibee]

It was an infamous match in terms of indiscipline and fouling, as well as crowd behaviour in 2nd leg. Racing knew that winning the return by any margin would get a playoff... so might well have played differently toward the close of tie, had they known that 3-1 would win it outright or 2-1 would lose it on away goals... and in that respect away goals is only a point in hindsight.


In general the playoff system was no help to Scotland.

Dunfermline drew 6-6 on aggregate with Valencia in Fairs Cup 1962-63, but lost playoff in Lisbon 1-0; two seasons on they drew 1-1 with Athletic Bilbao, but lost playoff there 2-1.

Hearts drew 4-4 with Lausannes in Fairs Cup 1963-64, but lost playoff there 3-2 aet; two seasons later they drew 5-5 with Real Zaragoza, but lost playoff there 1-0.

Hibs drew 5-5 with Roma in Fairs Cup 1960-61 (and would have won on away goals), but lost playoff there 6-0, and with it chance to play in a European final.

Rangers drew 3-3 with Nice in European Cup 1956-67, but lost playoff in Paris 3-1. Later, they fared better in that tournament: in 1959-60 they drew 3-3 with Sparta Rotterdam and won playoff 3-2 in London, and in 1964-65 drew 5-5 with Red Star Belgrade and won playoff 3-1 in London.

Having finished tied in the group Czechoslovakia beat Scotland 4-2 aet in Brussels to qualify for WC 62.

[Big Chief Toffee Teeth]

It was an infamous match in terms of indiscipline and fouling, as well as crowd behaviour in 2nd leg. Racing knew that winning the return by any margin would get a playoff... so might well have played differently toward the close of tie, had they known that 3-1 would win it outright or 2-1 would lose it on away goals... and in that respect away goals is only a point in hindsight.


In general the playoff system was no help to Scotland.

Dunfermline drew 6-6 on aggregate with Valencia in Fairs Cup 1962-63, but lost playoff in Lisbon 1-0; two seasons on they drew 1-1 with Athletic Bilbao, but lost playoff there 2-1.

Hearts drew 4-4 with Lausannes in Fairs Cup 1963-64, but lost playoff there 3-2 aet; two seasons later they drew 5-5 with Real Zaragoza, but lost playoff there 1-0.

Hibs drew 5-5 with Roma in Fairs Cup 1960-61 (and would have won on away goals), but lost playoff there 6-0, and with it chance to play in a European final.

Rangers drew 3-3 with Nice in European Cup 1956-67, but lost playoff in Paris 3-1. Later, they fared better in that tournament: in 1959-60 they drew 3-3 with Sparta Rotterdam and won playoff 3-2 in London, and in 1964-65 drew 5-5 with Red Star Belgrade and won playoff 3-1 in London.

Having finished tied in the group Czechoslovakia beat Scotland 4-2 aet in Brussels to qualify for WC 62.

In counterpoint to all the bad luck of Scottish teams through the play-off system, Celtic did beat Benfica on the toss of a coin on their journey to the 1970 European Cup final.
Billy McNeill famously claimed that Coluna, the Benfica captain, guessed correctly on the referee's toss but McNeill managed to convince the ref that this was only to decide which captain got to toss the coin for the "real" toss-up. ( I think I got the shenanigans right, but my memory isn't what it was. )

[HibeeJibee]

27 minutes ago, Big Chief Toffee Teeth said:

In counterpoint to all the bad luck of Scottish teams through the play-off system, Celtic did beat Benfica on the toss of a coin on their journey to the 1970 European Cup final.
Billy McNeill famously claimed that Coluna, the Benfica captain, guessed correctly on the referee's toss but McNeill managed to convince the ref that this was only to decide which captain got to toss the coin for the "real" toss-up. ( I think I got the shenanigans right, but my memory isn't what it was. )

Mentioned that a couple of posts up.

Rangers beat Real Zaragoza on coin toss in CWC 1966-67 QF.


Morocco beat Tunisia on a coin toss in qualifying for WC 1962 and WC 1970. They did the same to them in qualifying for the Olympics in 1968. Tunisia must have been furious. Then the first time a penalty shootout was needed in World Cup qualifying history, for WC 1978, it was Tunisia v Morocco but Tunisia won: no doubt to much relief.

Youth WC 1952 was ruined by lack of tie-breaker. Austria beat France in R1... Belgium beat Austria in SF... Austria beat England in 3rd/4th... all on coin toss. Spain beat Belgium in Final on "competition GA".


Interestingly a coin toss was used as recently as 2000 in Gold Cup to decide which of Canada or South Korea progressed to QFs... both drew 2-2 with Costa Rica, and 0-0 with each other.

EDIT: Think most recent example here was Anglo-Italian Cup 1992-93 (tournament which replaced Full Members Cup). In the English preliminary groupstage West Ham and Bristol Rovers drew 2-2 in opening game, then both beat Southend 3-0. West Ham won toss to progress.

Edited November 18, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[kenny131]

On 18/11/2019 at 12:48, naegoodinthedark said:

Snakes don’t get nervous. They’re just snakes.

Hopefully the kazakh's get a 1 nil win.........and Ryan jack gets the winner 

[Gordopolis]

Hopefully the kazakh's get a 1 nil win.........and Ryan jack gets the winner 

Did I miss some booing of Jack in Cyprus?

[kenny131]

4 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

27 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Hopefully the kazakh's get a 1 nil win.........and Ryan jack gets the winner 

Did I miss some booing of Jack in Cyprus?

Posters on here calling him a rat. He will get booed tonight for sure