General Election 2019 - AND IT’S LIVE!

[LongTimeLurker]

Have you ever actually met any Palestinians?

[Alan Stubbs]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The Mizrahi Jews were driven out or had to flee Arab countries where they had been present for millennia, and for the most part they have no right of return. Presenting Israel as only being a settler colonial project driven by 19th century Zionism is a gross over-simplification of what has happened. Israel can also be viewed as being part of a process similar to what happened in Europe in the previous 100 years and up to as recently as the 90s in Yugoslavia where ethnically homogeneous nation states have been carved out in areas that had previously been highly multiethnic.

Also not sure where this white bit is coming into the equation given what happened with the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia back in the 1980s, and given many/most people would tend to view most Palestinians as being white as well. It's very much forced as an analogy because a lot of Palestinians are actually relatively recent Ottoman era arrivals from the Balkans or the Caucasus in ancestral terms.  This image, for example, looks a wee bit different from Soweto in the 1970s and a lot more like Pristina in the 1990s:

Nobody in the international community is seriously suggesting a one-state solution is the way to go for Serbs and Albanians, so not sure why it has become so trendy to suggest it would be viable or sensible with Israel and Palestine. Hopefully it all gets sorted out eventually in an even-handed way that provides peace, prosperity and democracy to everybody in that part of the world. Long term I doubt Israel will be able to use military force alone to prevail in that part of the world given how little strategic depth they have. At some point they are going to need something like the failed Oslo peace process to work.

A bit off topic but that is a great (/terrible but you know what I mean) photo. So much going on.

[Londonwell]

1 hour ago, dirty dingus said:

What the fukityfuk is this shit.

Runrig have really went down hill. 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, dirty dingus said:

What the fukityfuk is this shit.

He deserves not to get elected for that.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Have you ever actually met any Palestinians?

Green Brigade have, m8.

[Tutankhamen]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Have you ever actually met any Palestinians?

Met a few Palestinian Christians on my visit to the Holy Land

Good people 

[Old Pack]

Have you ever actually met any Palestinians?

60,000 go to Celtic Park every other week.

[Florentine_Pogen]

I’ve deliberately been avoiding pretty much all media coverage but saw this today and my heart just fúcking sank.....
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/dec/05/election-polls-uk-2019-latest-opinion-poll-tracker?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[BottiBiabi]

I went to the Angus hustings last night and it’s was, umm... interesting.

Hair had a fucking nightmare of an evening. Firstly, she said she was a champion of LGBT rights before being absolutely slaughtered by the floor for her voting record against LGBT rights which she tried to defend by saying she supports devolution and it’s an issue for the northern Irish people or some pish like that. Secondly, she tried to attack the state of the SNHS and said that “the care giving is abysmal” before being attacked by a student nurse for implying that the nurses aren’t fit for purpose. There was three people in the room who were cheering her every word, two of which I recognised to be her mother and father. The absolute highlight of the debate thought was when the one out of the three who I didn’t recognise stood up and screamed that the SNP candidate Dave Doogan was a disgrace before finishing with “I AM PROUDLY SCOTTISH, BUT I AM FIERCELY BRITISH”

The Lib Dem candidate did himself no harm last night and hopefully he takes some Tory votes.

Most polls have Hair as retaining the seat but after last nights I’m increasingly convinced she’s fucked.

One final thing, they had a prerecorded clapping track which they played after candidates spoke for the first couple times, was mental stuff.

[Pet Jeden]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The Mizrahi Jews were driven out or had to flee Arab countries where they had been present for millennia, and for the most part they have no right of return. Presenting Israel as only being a settler colonial project driven by 19th century Zionism is a gross over-simplification of what has happened. Israel can also be viewed as being part of a process similar to what happened in Europe in the previous 100 years and up to as recently as the 90s in Yugoslavia where ethnically homogeneous nation states have been carved out in areas that had previously been highly multiethnic.

Also not sure where this white bit is coming into the equation given what happened with the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia back in the 1980s, and given many/most people would tend to view most Palestinians as being white as well. It's very much forced as an analogy because a lot of Palestinians are actually relatively recent Ottoman era arrivals from the Balkans or the Caucasus in ancestral terms.  This image, for example, looks a wee bit different from Soweto in the 1970s and a lot more like Pristina in the 1990s:

 

Nobody in the international community is seriously suggesting a one-state solution is the way to go for Serbs and Albanians, so not sure why it has become so trendy to suggest it would be viable or sensible with Israel and Palestine. Hopefully it all gets sorted out eventually in an even-handed way that provides peace, prosperity and democracy to everybody in that part of the world. Long term I doubt Israel will be able to use military force alone to prevail in that part of the world given how little strategic depth they have. At some point they are going to need something like the failed Oslo peace process to work.

What you say is right - the Jewish people were persecuted out of Arab countries and North African countries and not forgetting, European countries. But who gave Europe and America the right to decide that the Palestinian people should be the ones to pay the price of all that persecution?

However, all of the past's injustices can't be held onto for ever and can't be rectified without creating greater misery. It's a question of time, isn't it? After 400 years, nobody suggests North America should be returned to the Native American people and nobody suggest that all Hispanics should be removed from Latin America.  After 100 years, almost nobody suggests that the partition of Ireland should be undone (except  by consent).  And so too with Israel. After 75 years since its foundation,  probably a majority of world opinion has no appetite for undoing it. But after 50 years since the 6 Day War, probably a majority of world opinion is still that those effects and spoils should be undone.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I went to the Angus hustings last night and it’s was, umm... interesting.

Hair had a fucking nightmare of an evening. Firstly, she said she was a champion of LGBT rights before being absolutely slaughtered by the floor for her voting record against LGBT rights which she tried to defend by saying she supports devolution and it’s an issue for the northern Irish people or some pish like that. Secondly, she tried to attack the state of the SNHS and said that “the care giving is abysmal” before being attacked by a student nurse for implying that the nurses aren’t fit for purpose. There was three people in the room who were cheering her every word, two of which I recognised to be her mother and father. The absolute highlight of the debate thought was when the one out of the three who I didn’t recognise stood up and screamed that the SNP candidate Dave Doogan was a disgrace before finishing with “I AM PROUDLY SCOTTISH, BUT I AM FIERCELY BRITISH”

The Lib Dem candidate did himself no harm last night and hopefully he takes some Tory votes.

Most polls have Hair as retaining the seat but after last nights I’m increasingly convinced she’s fucked.

One final thing, they had a prerecorded clapping track which they played after candidates spoke for the first couple times, was mental stuff.

I heard about the Healthcare comment. I have quite a few family and friends in the NHS. I'll be sure to let them know what Kirstene thinks of them.

[dorlomin]

Jesus wept not this shit again. 

12 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I think this part of the rules is badly worded.

Presumably if I criticised the methods used to found the Israeli state, eg. ethnic cleansing, land and property expropriation, and terrorism, I could be accused of claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour

Obsessive focus on one state and applying a set of rules to that state alone (here defining it as a racist endeavour) is swirling round the drain of lots of very nasty shit.

Lets take Turkey. Found by the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide, the expulsion of perhaps 1 million more (I do not have good estimates to hand and am writing quickly). Then the genocide and explosion of the Pontic Greeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide with another 450 000 killed.

That is not deported, that is Turkey was founded of the killing of over 2 million people in about 20 years. There was also mass deportations number into the millions.

Turkey was set up to be a homeland for the Ottoman Turks from all over the disintegrating empire including a huge population transfer from what today we call "Greece". In the following decades the aggressive "Turkification" directed at all minorities including Kurds aimed to form what today is considered a form of ethnic cleansing by eliminating all no Turkic cultures. 

It is hardly alone, the world from the late 19th to mid 20th century was a mass of states founded on genocides and ethnic cleansing. 

Founding of Pakistan : 2 million deaths, 14 million displaced. 1946/7

Founding of Bangladesh, the Bangladesh genocide between 300 000 and 3 million murdered. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Founding of modern Germany 1944-50 12 million people expelled and repatriated, only about 1 million were those settled by the Nazis, most were from communities hundreds of years old. Perhaps 1-2 million people died during the forced marches by the numbers are subject to significant historical debate and deeply politicised (modern estimates will tend to be lower for the deaths). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–1950) 

There were other significant ethnic cleansings and mass migrations. (Poland again about 1.2 million people transferred between Ukraine and Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Ukraine)

 

The problem is know nothing attention seekers screaming "racist endeavour" when set against a back drop of a more realistic knowledge of history looks peculiarly myopic and single issue obsessed. You start with a conclusion "Israel is a racist endeavour" then to justify it, with no real knowledge of history beyond student protest politics, you build a case that turns out that countries from Argentina to the dissolution of Zanzibar can fit it. As new examples and counter examples are raised you end up shifting the goal posts to try to justify the conclusion without pausing to think about why the conclusions is so important to fit one case only. 

[welshbairn]

28 minutes ago, BottiBiabi said:

Most polls have Hair as retaining the seat but after last nights I’m increasingly convinced she’s fucked.

Bookies have SNP as narrow favourites.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, dorlomin said:

Jesus wept not this shit again. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Obsessive focus on one state and applying a set of rules to that state alone (here defining it as a racist endeavour) is swirling round the drain of lots of very nasty shit.

Lets take Turkey. Found by the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide, the expulsion of perhaps 1 million more (I do not have good estimates to hand and am writing quickly). Then the genocide and explosion of the Pontic Greeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide with another 450 000 killed.

That is not deported, that is Turkey was founded of the killing of over 2 million people in about 20 years. There was also mass deportations number into the millions.

Turkey was set up to be a homeland for the Ottoman Turks from all over the disintegrating empire including a huge population transfer from what today we call "Greece". In the following decades the aggressive "Turkification" directed at all minorities including Kurds aimed to form what today is considered a form of ethnic cleansing by eliminating all no Turkic cultures. 

It is hardly alone, the world from the late 19th to mid 20th century was a mass of states founded on genocides and ethnic cleansing. 

Founding of Pakistan : 2 million deaths, 14 million displaced. 1946/7

Founding of Bangladesh, the Bangladesh genocide between 300 000 and 3 million murdered. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Founding of modern Germany 1944-50 12 million people expelled and repatriated, only about 1 million were those settled by the Nazis, most were from communities hundreds of years old. Perhaps 1-2 million people died during the forced marches by the numbers are subject to significant historical debate and deeply politicised (modern estimates will tend to be lower for the deaths). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–1950) 

There were other significant ethnic cleansings and mass migrations. (Poland again about 1.2 million people transferred between Ukraine and Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Ukraine)

 

The problem is know nothing attention seekers screaming "racist endeavour" when set against a back drop of a more realistic knowledge of history looks peculiarly myopic and single issue obsessed. You start with a conclusion "Israel is a racist endeavour" then to justify it, with no real knowledge of history beyond student protest politics, you build a case that turns out that countries from Argentina to the dissolution of Zanzibar can fit it. As new examples and counter examples are raised you end up shifting the goal posts to try to justify the conclusion without pausing to think about why the conclusions is so important to fit one case only. 

 

Whataboutery at its finest.

[Jambomo]

Bookies have SNP as narrow favourites.

I hope so, she’s the one I would most like to lose her seat. It’s bad enough voting Tory, but voting for one as stupid as her is unforgivable.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

It actually just means they're opposed to something. Like when you're opposed to South Africa and don't buy Outspan. The death and destruction is in the dark recesses of your head. Israel is a state with shocking, murderous and illegal policies. Who wouldnt be opposed to that?

 

https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15755034405989&amp_ct=1575503453601&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fantisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html

 

 

5 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

But people weren't opposed to South Africa, they were opposed to apartheid in South Africa. And their opposition helped to make the thing they wanted to not exist anymore, apartheid, stop existing.

You either don't understand this nuance or you're pretending not to & refusing to be taught in order not to concede the point regarding opposition to the state of Israel being an antisemitic attitude. I won't be interacting with you further on this.

Being honest I find all this sort of stuff very tiresome, I really can't speak for anyone else, however up until maybe about 2 - 3 years ago I'd never actually heard anyone mention Jews, Israel or Anti Semitism within everyday language and reporting within this country. But now everyone and their Granny appears to be anti semitic ??

This leads me to believe that the agenda pushing this was solely concocted to derail Corbyn and Labour as they were perceived as a threat to the Elite, Powerbrokers and influencers within this country. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe there is a problem (which I'm certainly not seeing in Scotland) and if so then I apologise for my own ignorance.

However, in my view what we've now got is an ongoing witch hunt to discredit certain people within our society, again, due to them being perceived as a threat. The worrying thing is that all sides of the political spectrum are now joining in and using the gullible and ignorant masses on social media as their tool to shout down and shut down any sort of debate or contrary opinions.

This isn't liberalism or free speech in a progressive country, in fact it's quite the opposite.

To disagree with the policies of Israel doesn't make anyone anti semitic, and by the same token to criticise how some are interpreting the teachings of the Koran does not make anyone Islamophobic. People hold certain viewpoints for different reasons and so long as they have an argument (whether we agree or not) for backing up that viewpoint then they're perfectly entitled to their view and to voice their opinions as they see fit.

The Bible, Christianity and the role of the Church throughout history is attacked regularly by all quarters however for whatever reason this does not create any sort of outcry and neither it should, however for some reason there's an agenda to brand everyone as a "racist" or "bigot" who speaks out against certain aspects of other religions which I've always seen as rather strange.

I'd also say the current climate of trawling through peoples social media accounts and history, University History, political interests, acquaintances, family ties and even finding recordings of things said in jest or in a sarcastic / facetious manner are quite frankly ridiculous and seriously worrying. 

Nobody is lilly white and untouchable and as a nation we tend to use sarcasm, wit and humour on a daily basis however we're getting to the stage where NOTHING can be said without someone twisting the meaning, taking a statement out of context, insinuating a possible or potential link to another more sinister meaning or basically displaying faux outrage to accuse someone's innocent words as a heinous crime. It's pathetic.

I seriously hope we're not too far down this road to now turn back, however honesty to me was always the best policy but I'm afraid that's all long gone. One can no longer speak their mind without fear of "offending" someone and let's face it, you can never please everyone all of the time and neither should you be trying, but this climate of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" is going to come back and bite us big style, mark my words..............

[dorlomin]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Whataboutery at its finest.

"Why do you obsess about one groups failing when those vices are found in all groups in society".

"Shocking whataboutery. Now let me get back to talking about Muslim peado gangs......"

[DeeTillEhDeh]

A really interesting article on what how Zionism is completely misunderstood even by people who are meant to be its own supporters.

 

http://www.5tjt.com/two-historians-help-explain-why-people-misunderstand-zionism/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doulikefish]

Oofft Andrew Neil ripping boris a new one on the beeb

[doulikefish]

Oofft Andrew Neil ripping boris a new one on the beeb