General Election 2019 - AND IT’S LIVE!

[Baxter Parp]

Barney the Dinosaur would be islamophobic if he said Iran shouldn't be a country (admittedly this would be a scriptwriting turn none of us would expect). What were you trying to get at with the question?

Nobody suggested Iran shouldn't be a country. Are you sure you don't have a dark islamophobic secret?

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Nobody suggested Iran shouldn't be a country. Are you sure you don't have a dark islamophobic secret?

Are you sure you don’t have a dark undemocratic secret?

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

Israel is a white settler colonial project that ethnically cleansed existing Arab populations from their land for the benefit of Europeans....

Where do the Mizrahi Jews fit into the equation? Israel has a huge Arab citizen minority within its pre-1967 borders, while there are almost no Jews left now in any Arab country. What you have written is a gross over-simplification.

[Baxter Parp]

Where do the Mizrahi Jews fit into the equation? Israel has a huge Arab citizen minority within its pre-1967 borders, while there are almost no Jews left now in any Arab country. What you have written is a gross over-simplification.

Good point. Given 20% of the population is Arab, how can any criticism of Israel be anti-semitic?

[welshbairn]

I think this part of the rules is badly worded.

Quote

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence
of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour. 

Presumably if I criticised the methods used to found the Israeli state, eg. ethnic cleansing, land and property expropriation, and terrorism, I could be accused of claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour. I don't deny the right of Israel to exist, it's just a fact, and generations of Israelis have been born and lived there, now often with no living memory of before. The way it came about though, and the continuing expropriation of land in the West Bank where only Jews are allowed a vote for their de facto rulers, is and was a racist endeavour.

[Baxter Parp]

Maybe I'm very dumb but if someone is anti something, to me that means they don't want that thing to exist. If we can't agree on that I'm not sure either of us will get much from further interaction on this topic.

It actually just means they're opposed to something. Like when you're opposed to South Africa and don't buy Outspan. The death and destruction is in the dark recesses of your head. Israel is a state with shocking, murderous and illegal policies. Who wouldnt be opposed to that?

 

https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15755034405989&amp_ct=1575503453601&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fantisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html

 

[Highland Capital]

I see the LibDem candidate who ran against Blackford in 2017 has endorsed him.

[Baxter Parp]

I see the LibDem candidate who ran against Blackford in 2017 has endorsed him.

That's a turn up for the books, she'll be getting a stern note from Menzies.

[Baxter Parp]

That really is an incredible thing to believe.

No it's not. HTH.

[Old Pack]

All the Natzis being shown the door by the SNP will be warmly welcomed into the Labour Party.

[Detournement]

8 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Where do the Mizrahi Jews fit into the equation? Israel has a huge Arab citizen minority within its pre-1967 borders, while there are almost no Jews left now in any Arab country. What you have written is a gross over-simplification.

The USA and Brazil have large black populations descended from Africans but they are still white settler colonial projects. 

There is also racial discrimination within the Jewish population of Israel.

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

But people weren't opposed to South Africa, they were opposed to apartheid in South Africa. And their opposition helped to make the thing they wanted to not exist anymore, apartheid, stop existing.

You either don't understand this nuance or you're pretending not to & refusing to be taught in order not to concede the point regarding opposition to the state of Israel being an antisemitic attitude. I won't be interacting with you further on this.

South Africa introduced a new constitution in 1996. It's still called South Africa but it is essentially a completely different country (with a different flag). It's the Trigger's Brush of countries. 

If Israel kept the same name but introduced a new constitution with equal rights and protections for all the people within it's borders it would no longer be a Jewish state. You can't support the existence of a Jewish state in that location and also support Palestinian rights. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Detournement

[Baxter Parp]

But people weren't opposed to South Africa, they were opposed to apartheid in South Africa. And their opposition helped to make the thing they wanted to not exist anymore, apartheid, stop existing.

 

You either don't understand this nuance or you're pretending not to & refusing to be taught in order not to concede the point regarding opposition to the state of Israel being an antisemitic attitude. I won't be interacting with you further on this.

A quick Google of "anti-south africa" shows that it was interchangeable. Including Ghandi making anti-South African speeches.

 

You keep saying that anti means "not want to exist" and it doesn't, it means to oppose. To be anti-tory doesn't mean you want harm or destruction to the people who are voting or involved in the tory party (even now, yes), does it? I'm anti-universal credit but if it was reformed and became a fair and generous social service I would stop opposing it.

 

As for "refusing to be taught" you should pull your head out of your self-righteous arse.

 

 

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

I've reported everyone on this thread for antisemitism. Especially the ones who are using a hyphen between anti and semitism.

You can never be too careful these days.

[Dons_1988]

21 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

To be anti-tory doesn't mean you want harm or destruction to the people who are voting or involved in the tory party (even now, yes), does it? 

 

 

 

I dunno, I'm sure no one would shed a tear if @Moomintroll took a smack in the mouth.

 

[dirty dingus]

What the fukityfuk is this shit.

[Crùbag]

Lib Dems greasing their sphincters already in anticipation of propping up a minority Boris govt.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

The USA and Brazil have large black populations descended from Africans but they are still white settler colonial projects. 

There is also racial discrimination within the Jewish population of Israel.

The Mizrahi Jews were driven out or had to flee Arab countries where they had been present for millennia, and for the most part they have no right of return. Presenting Israel as only being a settler colonial project driven by 19th century Zionism is a gross over-simplification of what has happened. Israel can also be viewed as being part of a process similar to what happened in Europe in the previous 100 years and up to as recently as the 90s in Yugoslavia where ethnically homogeneous nation states have been carved out in areas that had previously been highly multiethnic.

Also not sure where this white bit is coming into the equation given what happened with the Falasha Jews from Ethiopia back in the 1980s, and given many/most people would tend to view most Palestinians as being white as well. It's very much forced as an analogy because a lot of Palestinians are actually relatively recent Ottoman era arrivals from the Balkans or the Caucasus in ancestral terms.  This image, for example, looks a wee bit different from Soweto in the 1970s and a lot more like Pristina in the 1990s:

Nobody in the international community is seriously suggesting a one-state solution is the way to go for Serbs and Albanians, so not sure why it has become so trendy to suggest it would be viable or sensible with Israel and Palestine. Hopefully it all gets sorted out eventually in an even-handed way that provides peace, prosperity and democracy to everybody in that part of the world. Long term I doubt Israel will be able to use military force alone to prevail in that part of the world given how little strategic depth they have. At some point they are going to need something like the failed Oslo peace process to work.

[LongTimeLurker]

17 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

Lib Dems greasing their sphincters already in anticipation of propping up a minority Boris govt.

 

Jo Swinson has already ruled out helping Corbyn into power, so what other option do they effectively have other than to prop up the Tories? Something for the SNP to be driving home to Labour voters thinking of voting tactically in places like Kirkintilloch, St Andrews or Wick.

[Detournement]

33 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

dy in the international community is seriously suggesting a one-state solution is the way to go for Serbs and Albanians, so not sure why it has become so trendy to suggest it would be viable or sensible with Israel and Palestine. 

It's become 'trendy' because Israel has deliberately destroyed any possibility of a Two State solution with illegal settlements and land and water grabs. The only options are One State or indefinite continuing Apartheid.

As for Palestinians being white, that is absolute crackpottery.