General Election 2019 - AND IT’S LIVE!

[HTG]

3 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

And whilst Tarmo is clearly at it, I'm surprised no one has pulled him up on the large Northern Ireland shaped hole in his 'muh democracy' argument.

Oh aye, the one that enables them to stay in the Customs Union whilst a similar request from Scotland was turned down. The Northern Ireland that some daft tory c**t described as having a stupendous deal - or some such.  But only described thus to try and exemplify why Arlene was wrong to froth with fury. In Scotland, the line to take is "you want the Customs Union - it'll never work". 

Shyster b*****ds pretending at democracy. Only a moron would miss the ironing of it all. 

[HTG]

3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

He's basically right though. We shat it in 2014 so we have to sit and watch as Holyrood is incrementally undermined.
 

He's not. 

[craigkillie]

5 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

He's basically right though. We shat it in 2014 so we have to sit and watch as Holyrood is incrementally undermined.

It doesn't subtract from it being notable that the rest of the UK is being dragged out the EU on the weight of English leave votes. The job for the SNP now is showing nice and clearly why that's bad for people working in various sectors and what they'd do differently if they were in charge.

Wales voted leave too.

[Detournement]

6 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

 and what they'd do differently if they were in charge.

https://www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot/

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

Exactly this. Toys out of the pram stuff from a lot of Remainers and Pro-Indy people. Scotland voted to stay in the UK. The UK then voted for Brexit. I don’t see why it’s so hard to comprehend for some people to understand how that’s democratic?

Completely ignoring the result of a referendum, is clearly undemocratic. I cannot grasp how anyone can think it’s democratic to have another referendum, but think it’s undemocratic for Scotland to be leaving the EU. Mind-boggling stuff.




Because we’ve just had one? People are always going to be born, die, and possibly change their minds but the point of the referendum is to hear what the people want. Do we just keep voting until everyone is sure they aren’t going to change their minds again?

 

The point you're missing / ignoring is that the unionists fought the Scottish referendum under the main ticket of Scotland being thrown out of the EU should they vote Yes, knowing this would strike fear into many people as Scotland was very Pro EU, this trick worked and the voting resulted in a 52% to 48% result in favour of remaining in the Union AND as a consequence in the EU.

The subsequent spread of the vote within Scotland in the EU ref (62 % to 38% in favour of Remain) further confirms that Scotland remaining within the EU is a MASSIVE pull to people in this country (this country being Scotland as opposed to a region of England), as such that blows the argument of "once in a generation" right out of the water as we all know things have changed dramatically since the Scottish Referendum.

If you can't understand or appreciate this, then I really don't think anything else requires saying...............

[Guest Jedi]

Ultimately, I would accept that it very difficult to hold a 2nd Referendum on any issue, until the result of the first one has at least been implemented. Therefore the case for a 2nd EU Ref is much harder to make, as no deal has been passed in the Commons as yet. Of course at the same time the Tories are still telling lies about Brexit. After promising the easiest deal in history, it has now become the soundbite 'Get Brexit Done'..despite the fact that they know, even if they can get a bill through parliament that it will only be the beginning, with years more negotiations (which will be more complex than anything which has happened yet). So it certainly wont 'Get Brexit Done' to have a Tory majority

In Scotland however the result of the 2014 Ref has been implemented...Scotland has remained in the UK since. Meanwhile the SNP have been very clear from day 1 that it would require  a material change of circumstance to call a 2nd vote. Brexit would be arguably the biggest constitutional change and upheaval which the UK has ever faced. Special arrangements are being made for N.Ireland (again I accept that it is different because of its border with an EU country), but the crucial fact remains that 'if' there are special arrangements for one of the 4 constituent members of the UK, then Scotland is a constituent member which voted overwhemingly to remain in the EU, it isn't just 'North Britain'

If there is a significant SNP result again next week, then people will have voted for a party which has been very clear in its manifesto that Indy Ref 2 should be on the table. In that case it would be undemocratic to not allow a vote, given that, as said the result of the first vote has already been implemented and tested.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jedi

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

The point you're missing / ignoring is that the unionists fought the Scottish referendum under the main ticket of Scotland being thrown out of the EU should they vote Yes, knowing this would strike fear into many people as Scotland was very Pro EU, this trick worked and the voting resulted in a 52% to 48% result in favour of remaining in the Union AND as a consequence in the EU.
The subsequent spread of the vote within Scotland in the EU ref (62 % to 38% in favour of Remain) further confirms that Scotland remaining within the EU is a MASSIVE pull to people in this country (this country being Scotland as opposed to a region of England), as such that blows the argument of "once in a generation" right out of the water as we all know things have changed dramatically since the Scottish Referendum.
If you can't understand or appreciate this, then I really don't think anything else requires saying...............

None of that matters though. Scotland chose to remain in the Union and the voters of the Union chose to leave. You can make all the excuses you want but it really is simple democracy.

[Guest Jedi]

It DOES matter though, because again, unlike Brexit, the result of the 2014 referendum has been implemented. In this election the choice is on the table with one party openly campaigning for a fresh Indy Ref. If a substantial majority of voters in Scotland back that party as the polls suggest is likely, then it is 'democratic' to examine why the vote was so high (if that is the result), and then arrange a 2nd Ref. In the case of Brexit, a 2nd Ref is problematic to say the least until the terms of the first one are passed. If a majority of people in Scotland vote for the Tories, then fine, the 2nd Ref is off.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jedi

[Baxter Parp]

Suspicions forming that Swinson is getting removed from LibDem leaflets.  Above is from two weeks ago compared to latest.

[Anonapersona]

1 hour ago, J_Stewart said:

Except we didn't. Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom on the basis that we were "an equal partner",. The Scottish Government's request for the vote of  each country to be acknowledged and hold equal sway would reflect this. This was rejected, because the UK is not a democratic entity, and Scotland is treated undemocratically within it.

What you're suggesting is that Scotland isn't a country, but rather just north Britain, and should therefore do as the rest of Britain decides. This is incorrect.

Tarmo Kink has been thoroughly unionized. He's Westminster's dream.

[HTG]

1 minute ago, Anonapersona said:

Tarmo Kink has been thoroughly unionized. He's Wetminter's dream.

Ftfy

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Snafu said:

Don't forget there was intimidation and scaremongering from the yes side as well

There was?

[Guest Jedi]

Must have missed the Yes scaremongering as well. Also, if there is an Indy Ref 2 the people of Scotland would have a choice to this time remain within a post-Brexit UK, or become Independent and stay within the EU. That is a choice which hasn't been offered yet, so the terms of a 2nd Ref are completely different from the first one. A post-Brexit UK in which pretty much every economist has said will make ordinary people worse off (even Rees-Mogg saying that it would take decades to see any benefit), is not the same constitutional or economic model which was on the table in 2014.

If the result was No, again, that that would be that, and we would have to accept that a 62% vote to remain in the EU had turned around into a desire to leave and stay as part of a poorer, Tory run UK.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jedi

[craigkillie]

45 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Because of votes of English people who moved there.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

You get immigrants of all sorts in all parts of the country voting in lots of different ways, and their vote counts just the same as everyone else's. The country of Wales voted for Brexit.

[NotThePars]

The scaremongering from Yes was “continued membership of the UK will see the welfare state dismantled.” Which we’ll have confirmation of in 9 days.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

Why not?

Because of votes of English people who moved there.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

In my experience of living in the Wrexham area, the native born Welsh were far more likely to vote leave than the generally liberal and hippyesque incomers.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

In my experience of living in the Wrexham area, the native born Welsh were far more likely to vote leave than the generally liberal and hippyesque incomers.

That figures...I've just watched a guy in a food bank in Grimsby declare that he sees Boris Johnson as the leader most likely to help his situation. I feel genuinely sorry for him.

[Donathan]

In my experience of living in the Wrexham area, the native born Welsh were far more likely to vote leave than the generally liberal and hippyesque incomers.

I think we’ll go with the research carried out by an Oxford professor and not your “experience”, m9.

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

 

I think we’ll go with the research carried out by an Oxford professor and not your “experience”, m9.

 

 

I haven't seen his workings so I can't be sure deference is required, but his argument in the Guardian doesn't convince me. Did he survey how the English settlers voted or did he just go by the overall poll numbers and demographics and make assumptions about who voted what?

Quote

If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”
About 21% (650,000) of people living in Wales were born in England, with nearly a quarter aged over 65. The country voted for Brexit by a majority of just 82,000.

Border towns and areas of central Wales with large English communities, such as Wrexham and Powys, recorded a higher proportion of leave votes, whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion had high remain votes.

P.S.

Quote

A factual analysis of census and electoral returns reveals a different picture to that painted by Prof Dorling, who writes about Wales with all the expertise of an English non-immigrant.

For example, of the 15 local authority areas with a higher than average Leave vote in 2016, only six had a higher than average English population (whether by birth or self-identification); nine had a higher than average Welsh population.

Of the 10 most pro-Leave areas, seven had higher Welsh populations than the average for Wales as a whole. All of them are represented by Labour MPs and all but one are in the south Wales valleys, where more than twice as many people voted Leave in 2016 than had voted Tory or Ukip the year before.

Only in nine of 22 Welsh local authority areas was there a correlation between English nationality and a greater propensity to vote Leave; in the other 13, the higher the proportion of Welsh residents, the greater the propensity to vote Leave.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/no-‘genuinely-welsh’-did-not-vote-remain

Edited December 4, 2019 by welshbairn

[Granny Danger]

Swinson now apparently realises supporting austerity whilst a member of the coalition government was wrong.

What sort of thick demented c**t do you have to be not to realise that at the time?