General Election 2019 - AND IT’S LIVE!

[Rodhull]

Just now, Tarmo Kink said:

 

Tell me

- how Scotland has been treated undemocratically
- why you would choose to ignore a referendum that the public voted on

Nah you're alright. You've decided your opinion is fact and repeated it ad-nauseum. Not worth wasting my time.

[Baxter Parp]

15 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Nobody suggested that, you’ve just made that up. Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are all the United Kingdom, and vote as such.

 

Made it up?  The United Kingdom is a union of four constituent countries none of which is subservient to the other. If one country's population can be made to do something against their will then clearly it's undemocratic. 

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Nah you're alright. You've decided your opinion is fact and repeated it ad-nauseum. Not worth wasting my time.

I’ve repeated it because, like you, nobody has made a valid argument against. Just ‘Are you joking?’ and ‘We need another referendum because people have changed their minds’.

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Made it up?  The United Kingdom is a union of four constituent countries none of which is subservient to the other. If one country's population can be made to do something against their will then clearly it's undemocratic. 

Nope, we vote as a Union and everybody knows this. If the Scottish people were so against that then they should have voted themselves out of the Union. As it stands, Scotland is part of the UK, which voted to leave. Nothing undemocratic about that.

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

‘We need another referendum because people have changed their minds’.

What on earth would be undemocratic about that? 

[hearthammer]

2 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

Nope, we vote as a Union and everybody knows this. If the Scottish people were so against that then they should have voted themselves out of the Union. As it stands, Scotland is part of the UK, which voted to leave. Nothing undemocratic about that.

 

Your use of  "we" is significant.  Here's what i wrote a couple of hours ago that you've either missed or ignored (the latter is your prerogative).

"When Rip, Rig and Panic rushed up to Glasgow a few days before the Independence vote in 2014 with their "Vow", that persuaded and scared many people who were either unsure or uncertain into voting "No".  They swanned off back to londonshire with their job done and reverted back into their master/servant roles with Scotland.  Nothing will change unless we grasp whatever opportunity WE decide upon - not westminster !!!!!!!"

There was a westminster connivance at play here, as there always is.  Your ""we" - referring to the whole of the "four equal partner" union falls apart with the other points i've made.  You replied to one if i'm correct.

You seem to fall into the second "born under a union flag" group i mentioned.  Your choice and, if happy with your brittania  westminster ruling Scotland, then that's your right.  To be wholly dismissive on the other salient points about Scotland being ceremonially shat on is, however, displaying a naivety, verging on myopia.

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Yeah as much as I would like to see an independent Scotland at some point during my life time its not about self interest and if the country voted no back in 2014 then so be it, we as a country do not want independence and no amount of foot stamping and crying that its not fair is gong to change that. We will have to wait another generation before we have another referendum (18 or so years). There is a fair point that this call for a referendum is entirely based on the country being miss-sold Brexit but then that would hardly change the political voting map of Scotland that drastically in 2 years since two years ago this country was more than aware of the consequences of a no deal Brexit.
Scottish, British or European we are still going to get fucked over regardless.

Exactly this. Toys out of the pram stuff from a lot of Remainers and Pro-Indy people. Scotland voted to stay in the UK. The UK then voted for Brexit. I don’t see why it’s so hard to comprehend for some people to understand how that’s democratic?

Completely ignoring the result of a referendum, is clearly undemocratic. I cannot grasp how anyone can think it’s democratic to have another referendum, but think it’s undemocratic for Scotland to be leaving the EU. Mind-boggling stuff.

What on earth would be undemocratic about that? 

Because we’ve just had one? People are always going to be born, die, and possibly change their minds but the point of the referendum is to hear what the people want. Do we just keep voting until everyone is sure they aren’t going to change their minds again?

[Baxter Parp]

14 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

Nope, we vote as a Union and everybody knows this. If the Scottish people were so against that then they should have voted themselves out of the Union. As it stands, Scotland is part of the UK, which voted to leave. Nothing undemocratic about that.

 

Life's too short.  Ignore.

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Your use of  "we" is significant.  Here's what i wrote a couple of hours ago that you've either missed or ignored (the latter is your prerogative).
"When Rip, Rig and Panic rushed up to Glasgow a few days before the Independence vote in 2014 with their "Vow", that persuaded and scared many people who were either unsure or uncertain into voting "No".  They swanned off back to londonshire with their job done and reverted back into their master/servant roles with Scotland.  Nothing will change unless we grasp whatever opportunity WE decide upon - not westminster !!!!!!!"
There was a westminster connivance at play here, as there always is.  Your ""we" - referring to the whole of the "four equal partner" union falls apart with the other points i've made.  You replied to one if i'm correct.
You seem to fall into the second "born under a union flag" group i mentioned.  Your choice and, if happy with your brittania  westminster ruling Scotland, then that's your right.  To be wholly dismissive on the other salient points about Scotland being ceremonially shat on is, however, displaying a naivety, verging on myopia.

Nobody is disputing whether Scotland is poorly treated by Westminster and nobody is dismissing anything. The point is that the Scottish people chose to stay in the UK, scaremongering or not (this will always happen in any form of politics).

At the moment Scotland is part of the UK which has voted to leave, pretty simple stuff. If Scotland wants to get back into the EU then they’ll have to campaign for indyref2, vote Yes, and then apply to join the EU.

[Donathan]

Tarmo Kink is surely just Malky using big words?

[hearthammer]

6 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

Nobody is disputing whether Scotland is poorly treated by Westminster and nobody is dismissing anything. The point is that the Scottish people chose to stay in the UK, scaremongering or not (this will always happen in any form of politics).

At the moment Scotland is part of the UK which has voted to leave, pretty simple stuff. If Scotland wants to get back into the EU then they’ll have to campaign for indyref2, vote Yes, and then apply to join the EU.

 

Read my previous posts and tell me where i'm incorrect.  Re your lowest common denominator argument, a "significant change" has occurred, and, as such, the matter from Scotland's perspective, requires reviewing.

Unless, of course, you don't want to see that. 

[J_Stewart]

42 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

Just because Westminster says so, and you agree with them, doesn't make it democratic at all.

Scotland is being pulled out of the EU against its will because of another nation's decision.

It's anything but democratic. We are talking about the future of a nation and it's not looking good.

 

41 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

 

How is it against its will? Scotland is part of the United Kingdom (it democratically voted to be) and the UK voted Leave. That is democratic.

 

Except it's not. Scotland's democratically elected Government requested that a veto be placed on EU departure before the referendum so that if one of the four UK member nations voted to remain they would not be forced leave against their will. This was rejected by Westminster. How, exactly, is that democratic?

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/cameron-rejects-giving-scotland-veto-in-eu-referendum/

The Leave campaign then broke electoral law during the campaign in order to sway voters. How, exactly, is that democratic?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

A majority of Scottish voters then still voted to remain in the EU, but are being dragged out due to votes by the populace of another country. How, exactly, is that democratic?

The answer to all three of  my  rhetorical questions is that it isn't, and the hypocritical screams of the "WHAT ABOUT THE DEMOCRACY???" from the 'leave means leave brigade' are always happy to ignore that fact. 

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

Except it's not. Scotland's democratically elected Government requested that a veto be placed on EU departure before the referendum so that if one of the four UK member nations voted to remain they would not be forced leave against their will. This was rejected by Westminster. How, exactly, is that democratic?
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/cameron-rejects-giving-scotland-veto-in-eu-referendum/
The Leave campaign then broke electoral law during the campaign in order to sway voters. How, exactly, is that democratic?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992
A majority of Scottish voters then still voted to remain in the EU, but are being dragged out due to votes by the populace of another country. How, exactly, is that democratic?
The answer to all three of  my  rhetorical questions is that it isn't, and the hypocritical screams of the "WHAT ABOUT THE DEMOCRACY???" from the 'leave means leave brigade' are always happy to ignore that fact. 

Because we, the United Kingdom, vote as the United Kingdom, not 4 separate beings. We, Scotland, voted to stay in the United Kingdom knowing full well we vote as the United

We are not being ‘dragged out of the EU’. We, as a Union, voted for Brexit.

These are all facts, and all democratic. Kicking up a stink because you came on the losing side of the vote doesn’t make it undemocratic I’m afraid.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

I think the biggest success of the Brexiteers was that they managed to condense Britain's complex and multi layered relationship and membership with Europe's institutions into the binary leave/remain question. This was done with what we will call a rather 'loose' interpretation of what a leave vote meant and no credible plan for what a future relationship with Europe would look like.

The result of this is the moronic 'leave means leave' and 'brexit means brexit' being shouted ad nauseam. Remainers digging their heels in and trying to overturn the result and the dereliction of domestic issues.

[J_Stewart]

2 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

 

Because we, the United Kingdom, vote as the United Kingdom, not 4 separate beings. We, Scotland, voted to stay in the United Kingdom knowing full well we vote as the United

We are not being ‘dragged out of the EU’. We, as a Union, voted for Brexit.

These are all facts, and all democratic. Kicking up a stink because you came on the losing side of the vote doesn’t make it undemocratic I’m afraid.

 

Except we didn't. Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom on the basis that we were "an equal partner",. The Scottish Government's request for the vote of  each country to be acknowledged and hold equal sway would reflect this. This was rejected, because the UK is not a democratic entity, and Scotland is treated undemocratically within it.

What you're suggesting is that Scotland isn't a country, but rather just north Britain, and should therefore do as the rest of Britain decides. This is incorrect.

[Antlion]

7 minutes ago, Tarmo Kink said:

 

Because we, the United Kingdom, vote as the United Kingdom, not 4 separate beings.

 

Sounds like a pretty fucked up union. The EU sounds much better.

[speckled tangerine]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Sounds like a pretty fucked up union. The EU sounds much better.

Everyone gets a veto for example. Sounds fab.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

And whilst Tarmo is clearly at it, I'm surprised no one has pulled him up on the large Northern Ireland shaped hole in his 'muh democracy' argument.

[HTG]

Just now, Antlion said:

Sounds like a pretty fucked up union. The EU sounds much better.

He's also ignoring the fact that the SNP, prior to elections following the 2014 vote, said that they wouldn't seek a fresh vote on independence unless there was a material change in the relationship between Scotland and rUK. They then cited a specific example - Scotland being taken out off Europe against the wishes of its people. 

There is nothing more undemocratic right now than the two main UK political parties preparing to ride over the top of Scotland's governing party and its very clearly stated position. 

But he knows all of this.  Those in favour of a union with England pick and choose when "democracy" should be applied.

[Arch Stanton]