dorlomin Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Quote "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." Quote She wasn't saying that it was impossible to fly a civilian plane in that manner, but that it would be unsafe to do so. As someone who has flown on military cargo aircraft, believe me, they can turn the things much faster then commercial airliners do. They don't because they don't want the passengers freaking out, losing their lunch, and getting hit in the head with the service carts. Somehow I doubt the hijackers had the passengers safety and comfort on their minds. By leaving off the last part of the quote they completely change its meaning. Incompetence, or deception? You tell me. https://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/it-was-military-plane.html Well I have found a source, seems the quote is cut and missing a key part. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 In my very limited experience of air craft hitting the ground is something most pilots can manage to one degree or another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, dorlomin said: https://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/it-was-military-plane.html Well I have found a source, seems the quote is cut and missing a key part. I didn't include that becuase a terrorist is unlikely to fly a plane in a safe manner. Would you not agree that a novice would find it difficult to control the plane in the way you say? If it's so easy to fly a plane erratically at speeds far faster than it would normally fly then why does it take so long to become a pilot, surely if you can take the reigns of a plant and steer in towards your destination of choice knocking over lamposts on the way then most folk could fly and land planes at the much slower speeds they normally fly at. 5 minutes ago, welshbairn said: I doubt they had much experience of watching a suicidal pilot with next to no experience and normal operating parameters the last thing on his mind. Very true, however, he still managed to fly exceptionally close to the ground long enough to ditch it into the building, I've never flown a plane but I suspect that once you start flying dangerously and increasing the speed then bottoming out of a dive 15 ft in the air and leveling it out is a pretty difficult thing to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 @johnnydun is a chauvinistic pig. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dele said: @johnnydun is a chauvinistic pig. For saying you are a straight male? Sorry, I got it wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Adam101 said: I didn't include that becuase a terrorist is unlikely to fly a plane in a safe manner. Isn't that the point. Quote Would you not agree that a novice would find it difficult to control the plane in the way you say? If it's so easy to fly a plane erratically at speeds far faster than it would normally fly then why does it take so long to become a pilot, Where do you get "far faster". Most of training to be a comercial pilot is about emergencies not flying in stable air with good visibility and all equipment working. Quote surely if you can take the reigns of a plant and steer in towards your destination of choice knocking over lamposts on the way then most folk could fly and land planes at the much slower speeds they normally fly at. Landing speeds are rather narrow ranges. Enough speed to maintain lift but slow enough you can still stop before you run out of runway. One of the things about the 911 hijackers is they never trained for landing let alone for the huge number of emergencies that real pilots have to be able to deal with. Quote Very true, however, he still managed to fly exceptionally close to the ground long enough to ditch it into the building, I've never flown a plane but I suspect that once you start flying dangerously and increasing the speed then bottoming out of a dive 15 ft in the air and leveling it out is a pretty difficult thing to do. You seem to be making guesses about how the aircraft moved and what is difficult about flying. The quote suggests he was flying badly for a commercial plane, not unusually fast or skilful. Being able to descend and make a touch down on a spot is not really the hard part of flying. He did not need to get his speed or angle right, just hit a spot. That is pretty basic stuff you will need to cover in early lessons. What source do you have that claims this was unusually difficult? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthammer Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Adam101 said: I've never flown a plane but I suspect that once you start flying dangerously and increasing the speed then bottoming out of a dive 15 ft in the air and leveling it out is a pretty difficult thing to do. Me neither but I'd imagine you just key in the direction and altitude you want and ignore all the alarms. We're not talking about yanking the joystick on a spitfire here. Edited October 26, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, dorlomin said: Isn't that the point. Where do you get "far faster". Most of training to be a comercial pilot is about emergencies not flying in stable air with good visibility and all equipment working. Landing speeds are rather narrow ranges. Enough speed to maintain lift but slow enough you can still stop before you run out of runway. One of the things about the 911 hijackers is they never trained for landing let alone for the huge number of emergencies that real pilots have to be able to deal with. You seem to be making guesses about how the aircraft moved and what is difficult about flying. The quote suggests he was flying badly for a commercial plane, not unusually fast or skilful. Being able to descend and make a touch down on a spot is not really the hard part of flying. He did not need to get his speed or angle right, just hit a spot. That is pretty basic stuff you will need to cover in early lessons. What source do you have that claims this was unusually difficult? The air traffic control compared the speed to a military jet, to me that sounds like he was flying faster than a normal jet. Pulling out a dive and knocking over lamposts as you fly does seem like a difficult thing to do. 3 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Me neither but I'd imagine you just key in the direction and altitude you want and ignore all the alarms. We're not talking about yanking the joystick on a spitfire here. Assuming that someone who had never seen the inside of a cockpit of that complexity could fathom out how to work the auto pilot. I guess we would need a pilot to confirm if auto pilot could follow the route he took I would think it would stop you flying too fast or turning to quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Adam101 said: Assuming that someone who had never seen the inside of a cockpit of that complexity could fathom out how to work the auto pilot. I guess we would need a pilot to confirm if auto pilot could follow the route he took I would think it would stop you flying too fast or turning to quickly. They trained on simulators for that very purpose, without bothering with the tricky landing and taking off thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 12 hours ago, welshbairn said: He was certainly shite at the landing part. The lessons didn't progress that far. For reasons that are now obvious... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Adam101 said: The air traffic control compared the speed to a military jet, to me that sounds like he was flying faster than a normal jet. Commercial jets fly at high mach numbers roughly around mach 0.8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications Where do you get speeds like a military jet, they will also cruise at those speeds and only go transonic or supersonic for specific reasons because those flight regimes are so much less fuel efficient. I have seen no evidence you have posted that it was flying at some kind of crazy speed. Quote Pulling out a dive and knocking over lamposts as you fly does seem like a difficult thing to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77#Crash a) An aircraft hit that building. There is no doubt. b) A commercial jet with 58 passengers went missing. c) Something that looked one hell of a lot like that jet was found at the crash site. How does your wild guesses at what is and what is not difficult for a pilot dispute any of that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A.F.C Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 5 hours ago, Fullerene said: Did it really suit the hawkish government? It cost the US economy billions of dollars and made them look incompetent and gave them an excuse to invade a country that nobody would want to invade. Is the US more powerful and impressive because of 9/11? No. Good points, but they also benefited from war. I don’t believe that they actually had any involvement or even actually wished for any of it just that it’s more of a question than were the towers blown up because at least there was plenty of politicians in America itching to get involved with the Middle East. https://www.newstatesman.com/node/192545 This is what people should be talking about, the reaction to 9/11 and how they used it an excuse to invade Iraq. This chain of events is still causing death and destruction now. Like you say though this hasn’t necessarily worked out well unless you have investments in war or oil. Which many of these politicians do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 5 hours ago, MixuFixit said: What is it about 9/11 that attracts the cranks? 5 hours ago, Fullerene said: For most of them the fact that it happened in their own country. He said "cranks", not "yanks". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) Quote Hanjour trained at the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Arizona, earning his FAA commercial pilot's certificate in April 1999.[3] He had wanted to be a commercial pilot for the Saudi national airline but was rejected when he applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah in 1999. Hanjour's brother later explained that, frustrated at not finding a job, Hanjour "increasingly turned his attention toward religious texts and cassette tapes of militant Islamic preachers".[4] Hanjour returned to Saudi Arabia after being certified as a pilot, but left again in late 1999, telling his family that he was going to the United Arab Emirates to work for an airline.[5] Hanjour likely went to Afghanistan, where Al-Qaeda recruits were screened for special skills they might have. Already having selected the Hamburg cell members, Al Qaeda leaders selected Hanjour to lead the fourth team of hijackers.[6] Quote Hanjour received ground instruction and did practice flights at Air Fleet Training Systems in Teterboro, New Jersey, and at Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey.[5] Hanjour moved out of the room in Paterson and arrived at the Valencia Motel in Laurel, Maryland, on September 2, 2001.[11] While in Maryland, Hanjour and fellow hijackers trained at Gold's Gym in Greenbelt.[12] On September 10, he completed a certification flight, using a terrain recognition system for navigation, at Congressional Air Charters in Gaithersburg, Maryland.[13][14] Edited October 26, 2019 by dorlomin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: The lessons didn't progress that far. For reasons that are now obvious... I wonder if there was a flying instructor sitting looking at his watch wondering where the Arabic blokes were when they should have been at their landing lesson. "That's it, I'm away. On their own head be it." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 29 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Me neither but I'd imagine you just key in the direction and altitude you want and ignore all the alarms. We're not talking about yanking the joystick on a spitfire here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 32 minutes ago, welshbairn said: They trained on simulators for that very purpose, without bothering with the tricky landing and taking off thing. They would have to be pretty good simulators to give them the experience of flying that size of plane 23 minutes ago, dorlomin said: Commercial jets fly at high mach numbers roughly around mach 0.8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications Where do you get speeds like a military jet, they will also cruise at those speeds and only go transonic or supersonic for specific reasons because those flight regimes are so much less fuel efficient. I have seen no evidence you have posted that it was flying at some kind of crazy speed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_77#Crash a) An aircraft hit that building. There is no doubt. b) A commercial jet with 58 passengers went missing. c) Something that looked one hell of a lot like that jet was found at the crash site. How does your wild guesses at what is and what is not difficult for a pilot dispute any of that? I don't dispute any of those details, just that the official story is far from comprehensive, the pentagon is one of the most survailed sites in the world yet the US gov only released one image of the plane in flight, it seems odd. I think it is odd that he flew the plane in the manner he did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 22 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said: If mutually assured destruction had been the name of the day back in 1914, Gavrilo Princip would probably be remembered by history as a lone nut, because Austria-Hungary would have had no appetite for invading Serbia, if missiles launched from the Russian Empire could vaporize Vienna and Budapest in a matter of minutes. Google the name Vasily Arkhipov for an insight into why the Warren Commission might not have wanted to delve too deeply and were happy to have Lee Oswald acting in isolation. Maybe the official narrative is true, maybe it's not, but Oliver Stone's film was a load of misleading bollocks either way. 9/11 was clearly a conspiracy because more than one hijacker was involved. The JFK era terminology isn't really applicable. There are no shortage of proven conspiracies like the escapades of the Black Hand in Sarajevo. 22 hours ago, dorlomin said: You may scoff but the black hand is proven fact. It was on Sooty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) Just in case anyone doesn't know what was being referred to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand_(Serbia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Dimitrijević Edited October 26, 2019 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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