Would you change our league?

[RandomGuy.]

20 hours ago, sjc said:

It would make a lot of sense in Scotland. A less saturated period for negotiating a TV deal 

Apart from competing with the World Cup/Euros every two years? How do we get around those tournaments anyway, without playing in January and December?

19 hours ago, sjc said:

 

I get your point about space but Clubs could tie up withe the local council to have adjacent streets closed off to traffic for the day just like they do for street markets or the like. Clubs like St Johnstone would have no such issues!

What streets would we shut? The only that leads to McDiarmid is the Crieff Road, which you simply couldnt shut for a full day as it's the main road to Tesco, the bypass and anything North of Perth. Youd cause absolute carnage shutting it.

Edited November 9, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[sjc]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Apart from competing with the World Cup/Euros every two years? How do we get around those tournaments anyway, without playing in January and December?

What streets would we shut? The only that leads to McDiarmid is the Crieff Road, which you simply couldnt shut for a full day as it's the main road to Tesco, the bypass and anything North of Perth. Youd cause absolute carnage shutting it.

The Scandinavian Countries as well as Russia manage it fit their season in between March and November.......and Sweden and Russia actually take part in those finals on a regular basis.

If you read what I said about McDiarmid Park again you'll see that I stated the St Johnstone wouldn't have to close any roads off as they have enough space already.

You talk about carnage of closing roads off when the authorities are quite happy to do so for orange fucking walks which bring zero commercial benefits whatsoever. Done properly, like in other Countries, something like this could not only boost the Club's but the local community too.

[GNU_Linux]

The Scandinavian Countries as well as Russia manage it fit their season in between March and November.......and Sweden and Russia actually take part in those finals on a regular basis.
If you read what I said about McDiarmid Park again you'll see that I stated the St Johnstone wouldn't have to close any roads off as they have enough space already.
You talk about carnage of closing roads off when the authorities are quite happy to do so for orange fucking walks which bring zero commercial benefits whatsoever. Done properly, like in other Countries, something like this could not only boost the Club's but the local community too.

Russia switched to an autumn-spring season in 2012-2013. Like Ukraine in that part of the world the league has a 3 month or so winter break.

[RandomGuy.]

26 minutes ago, sjc said:

The Scandinavian Countries as well as Russia manage it fit their season in between March and November.......and Sweden and Russia actually take part in those finals on a regular basis.

Do they? Russia has been July-May for an long time?

These are the only nations that run Summer football.

You can debate whatever you like, but just now theres only 7 weeks between the final game, and the first game, so ive absolutely no idea how you're getting a March to November season without taking out both cup competitions, cutting the amount of senior teams or just ignoring International weekends.

In Euro/World Cup years, we'd be playing an almost identical season as we are now, except the season would be ending on New Years Day, with the high potential of the game being cancelled.

Edited November 9, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[RandomGuy.]

27 minutes ago, sjc said:

 

If you read what I said about McDiarmid Park again you'll see that I stated the St Johnstone wouldn't have to close any roads off as they have enough space already.

Saints currently have pre match events for kids where players get involved, they play football, the playstation, competitions together. It's right next to the Muirton suite so adults get a drink inside, with live football on.

They have table football in the family stand, have yet more players in the stand pre match, let families in for £15, have face painting, give out things for kids every so often. Allow local kids football teams onto the pitch at half time, allow adult football teams on the pitch at half time. They occasionally, when able, have events on the astro pre match when it's free.

What, exactly, are you proposing they add to all that? 

[sjc]

49 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

1 hour ago, sjc said:

The Scandinavian Countries as well as Russia manage it fit their season in between March and November.......and Sweden and Russia actually take part in those finals on a regular basis.
If you read what I said about McDiarmid Park again you'll see that I stated the St Johnstone wouldn't have to close any roads off as they have enough space already.
You talk about carnage of closing roads off when the authorities are quite happy to do so for orange fucking walks which bring zero commercial benefits whatsoever. Done properly, like in other Countries, something like this could not only boost the Club's but the local community too.

Russia switched to an autumn-spring season in 2012-2013. Like Ukraine in that part of the world the league has a 3 month or so winter break.

I stand corrected on Russia.

[sjc]

47 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Do they? Russia has been July-May for an long time?

These are the only nations that run Summer football.

You can debate whatever you like, but just now theres only 7 weeks between the final game, and the first game, so ive absolutely no idea how you're getting a March to November season without taking out both cup competitions, cutting the amount of senior teams or just ignoring International weekends.

In Euro/World Cup years, we'd be playing an almost identical season as we are now, except the season would be ending on New Years Day, with the high potential of the game being cancelled.

How do Sweden manage it on a regular basis? It obviously can be done as they have far longer and harsher winters than Scotland. 

Sweden and Norway have a 16 team top division IE - 30 league games. Sometimes less is more.

Scottish Clubs (especially the ones playing European competitions) are practically playing non stop!

42 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Saints currently have pre match events for kids where players get involved, they play football, the playstation, competitions together. It's right next to the Muirton suite so adults get a drink inside, with live football on.

They have table football in the family stand, have yet more players in the stand pre match, let families in for £15, have face painting, give out things for kids every so often. Allow local kids football teams onto the pitch at half time, allow adult football teams on the pitch at half time. They occasionally, when able, have events on the astro pre match when it's free.

What, exactly, are you proposing they add to all that? 

Very commendable Saints. Perhaps moving the league campaign to when the weather is better would help?

[RandomGuy.]

4 minutes ago, sjc said:

How do Sweden manage it on a regular basis? It obviously can be done as they have far longer and harsher winters than Scotland. 

Sweden and Norway have a 16 team top division IE - 30 league games. Sometimes less is more.

Scottish Clubs (especially the ones playing European competitions) are practically playing non stop!

Very commendable Saints. Perhaps moving the league campaign to when the weather is better would help?

I don't know tbh, but less games mean less income, you think that'll be made up by extra fans coming because it's a bit warmer? 

The only month we avoid playing in is June. The most popular month for family holidays.

Theres a multitude of reasons Summer Football hasnt been adopted. This idea that playing in June instead of January will suddenly see crowds flying up is just complete simpleton logic.  Crowds are, slowly, rising just now anyway.

Sound the @HibeeJibee horn, Summer football will save us!

Edited November 9, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[sjc]

13 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I don't know tbh, but less games mean less income, you think that'll be made up by extra fans coming because it's a bit warmer? 

The only month we avoid playing in is June. The most popular month for family holidays.

Theres a multitude of reasons Summer Football hasnt been adopted. This idea that playing in June instead of January will suddenly see crowds flying up is just complete simpleton logic.  Crowds are, slowly, rising just now anyway.

Sound the @HibeeJibee horn, Summer football will save us!

A bigger league seeing only 1 H&A fixtures against each Club would help in my opinion. Young kids and families would prefer the better weather too but we'll only find out if we try I guess.

I think the crowds (non OF) will drop back down now that the duopoly has reconvened, sadly.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, sjc said:

How do Sweden manage it on a regular basis? It obviously can be done as they have far longer and harsher winters than Scotland. 

Sweden and Norway have a 16 team top division IE - 30 league games. Sometimes less is more.

Scottish Clubs (especially the ones playing European competitions) are practically playing non stop!

Very commendable Saints. Perhaps moving the league campaign to when the weather is better would help?

The weather thing doesn't stand up.

Games are regularly played in warm weather in April, May, July (league cup), August and September. Crowds don't jump up during these times. 

Folk seem to make out that we only play games here in the dark when it's freezing and raining or snowing. It's a bizarre lie.

Also games around the festive period usually see a slight increase in crowds (although the fact that derbies are played at this time definitely has an effect, but those crowds don't suffer because it's cold).

Edited November 9, 2019 by DA Baracus

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, sjc said:

A bigger league seeing only 1 H&A fixtures against each Club would help in my opinion. Young kids and families would prefer the better weather too but we'll only find out if we try I guess.

I think it's a delusion that playing teams less would encourage crowds higher. From my experience most folk dont particularly care.

And it's all well and good saying we'll only find out if we try, but what happens if it's a complete disaster because families all go away for a full month of the season, then the end of the season ends up delayed past the end of the year because we have a bad November/December?

[sjc]

32 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

The weather thing doesn't stand up.

Games are regularly played in warm weather in April, May, July (league cup), August and September. Crowds don't jump up during these times. 

Folk seem to make out that we only play games here in the dark when it's freezing and raining or snowing. It's a bizarre lie.

Also games around the festive period usually see a slight increase in crowds (although the fact that derbies are played at this time definitely has an effect, but those crowds don't suffer because it's cold).

Fair points but you'd be reluctant to take a young family in bad weather.

19 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think it's a delusion that playing teams less would encourage crowds higher. From my experience most folk dont particularly care.

And it's all well and good saying we'll only find out if we try, but what happens if it's a complete disaster because families all go away for a full month of the season, then the end of the season ends up delayed past the end of the year because we have a bad November/December?

We'll never know unless we try I guess. I actually think the football on show would be better technically due to the pitches being firmer and in general better.

It can't be worse that OF Colt teams in League 2!

[Monkey Tennis]

Summer football is an awful idea in our country.  

Leaving aside commercial or even footballing reasons, we need football in the winter.  January and February are bleak enough.

[HibeeJibee]

9 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Sound the @HibeeJibee horn, Summer football will save us!

If we'd such a season in 2020 it would begin Jan 11th then end with the Scottish Cup Final on Dec 19th. (That's after somehow saving 2 dates i.e. 10-team Premiership / truncating a cup).

EDIT: Norwegian season of 2019 began March 15th - it only ends December 8th; they play 30 league games, a straight knockout cup, and no League Cup... Swedish season began February 15th - it ends tomorrow (November 9th); also play 30 league games, knockout cup with 3 game groups, no League Cup... They'll be longer in 2020.


With respect to kickoffs - which were 3:30pm until early 1920s btw - issue with moving off 3pm is that (say) 1pm is lunchtime and hampers people working half days... (say) 5pm is dinnertime. Both also clash with EPL on TV and might hamper those using public transport, especially away fans. Friday nights were trialled a few years ago, but after novelty bounces proved ineffectual - now it only happens for TV or groundshare clashes.


Craigkillie has ably demolished the "late Victorian ideal" myth.

It's also worth remembering that from 1904 to 1948 only 1 league title wasn't won by OF. During that same period only 17 Scottish Cup/equivalents weren't (5 during WWI + WWII).

Edited November 9, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[Guest JTS98]

13 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

1) Craigkillie has ably demolished the "late Victorian ideal" myth.

2) It's also worth remembering that from 1904 to 1948 only 1 league title wasn't won by OF. During that same period only 17 Scottish Cup/equivalents weren't (5 during WWI + WWII).

1) Not really. He disagreed with a point nobody was making; that we should return wholesale to the set-up of the 19th century. For example, do you think gate receipt sharing in some way would make our game more or less competitive?

2) Complicated by two world wars, one of which arguably cost Hearts at least one title and the other of which stopped play altogether for a few years (in terms of a national league, anyway). Also worth pointing out that the decade after that saw five non-Old Firm title wins by three different teams. Do you see that situation arising from where we are now? I'd argue it's impossible without organisational change.

ETA: By my reckoning we're at 17 non-Old Firm Scottish Cup wins in 44 years at the moment.

Edited November 10, 2019 by JTS98

[craigkillie]

1) Not really. He disagreed with a point nobody was making; that we should return wholesale to the set-up of the 19th century. For example, do you think gate receipt sharing in some way would make our game more or less competitive?

I replied specifically to your point that the founders of the league would be horrified to see what it was like now.

[Guest JTS98]

Just now, craigkillie said:

 

 

I replied specifically to your point that the founders of the league would be horrified to see what it was like now.

 

Which was quite clearly in reference to the specific safeguards built into the competition to ensure competition. I completely stand by it.

The posh lads that set up football in Scotland and England would have been aghast at the idea that big clubs would be allowed to dominate simply because they are popular.

[Cyclizine]

22 hours ago, sjc said:

We'll never know unless we try I guess. I actually think the football on show would be better technically due to the pitches being firmer and in general better.

With your theoretical condensed season finishing in November/December and Starting in Feb/March, when do you plan for pitch maintenance, re-seeding, re-laying, etc?

[sjc]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

With your theoretical condensed season finishing in November/December and Starting in Feb/March, when do you plan for pitch maintenance, re-seeding, re-laying, etc?

Are you seriously suggesting that pitches would be worse off for playing a summer season?

Currently Clubs generally manage to maintain their pitches through the winter months in spite of playing matches on them. Disagree with moving to a summer season, that's your prerogative , but pitches being worse off wouldn't be a problem.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, sjc said:

Are you seriously suggesting that pitches would be worse off for playing a summer season?

Currently Clubs generally manage to maintain their pitches through the winter months in spite of playing matches on them. Disagree with moving to a summer season, that's your prerogative , but pitches being worse off wouldn't be a problem.

Apart from the fact the Summer month off is when most teams let their grass grow and recover, or are you magically expecting to recover in January?